Chris Potter - More than a friend to collectors

[metrotheme]

http://www.baseballhappenings.net/2012/01/chris-potter-more-than-friend-to.html

Just interviewed Chris Potter, the man behind many private signings, who has earned his stripes traveling the country by car to meet with this myriad of players. He gave the background of how he started and what keeps him going. I'm sure some of you here have dealt with him.

 

[mrmopar]

It is an interesting niche market. I have always wondered about how guys get set up to do this and how they can convince players to sign, however I'm sure a lot of that is held in secrecy so as not to lose their hold on the business end. My first though was why not fly, but maybe he is lining up guys who are relatively close geographically. Driving a lot of distance is not that economical these days, that is for sure.

He has had a lot of neat obscure guys, but I still think his individual prices tend to run higher than I would want to pay. I have yet to see a fee and player combo that has made me want to pull the trigger, although I typically already have signatures from most of his clients already.

I see he has Rich Coggins in his current list, who apparently is very reclusive. It took me a few years, but I finally landed a 74T I needed for my trophy set and it was around $20. He wants $35 plus you have to deal with shipping. Perhaps if I didn't already have him, I might consider it. I'm sure a majority of the price structure has to do with how much the player is willing to sign for, but I know it has to be worth the promoters time too. Most of these players could send notes to people with prices themselves, but often they just seem to avoid signing all together.

I'd like to see common players in the $3-8 range myself, but maybe that is not worth their time. I know that doesn't leave a ton of room for profit on the low end, but we'd be talking common players who had a cup of coffee, not a HOF type player. I think that more people would be willing to buy the signature then, if the prices were lower. Volume driven revenue! Anyone remember when Beckett listed Eddie Mathews home address and said he charged $2 a sig! WOW! I took advantage and snagged 2 cards, but I'm sure others took much more advantage than I did. Those days are seemingly long gone...

 

[stlcardtrader]

I have used Chris Potter before on a couple of occassions and only had 1 issue with a signing that was delayed for a couple of months. I agree that some of the pricing seems a bit steep on some of these guys. For instance Wally Moon is $25 for a card via Potter Sports, but you can send to him directly for $8 per card. I did also have a situation arise for Sixto Lezcano who I sent to via TTM. My first attempt he returned my cards stating he charged $3 per auto, I re-packaged everything and sent back to Lezcano only to get a note written on my letter stating he had signed an exclusive contract with Chris Potter Sports and was now charging $12 per signature. Needless to say I passed on Lezcano for $12 per. I don't have an issue ponying up for a tougher signer which is why I have used this service a couple of times.

 

[metrotheme]

After spending time talking to him, without going in to details, it's nearly impossible to conduct these signings at a low fee as someone suggested. Just think about all the time it takes to handle all of the mail order, package everything, organize everything, etc. on top of all of the travel.

I think people forget he is trying to run a business while providing a service to collectors at the same time.

I think alot of what you are paying for is the service of the items being taken care of and access to signers that have hidden in the past.

 

[metrotheme]

I remember when Mathews was charging like $5 TTM in the mail and I didn't pull the trigger and he wound up dying young.

Anyone remember when Beckett listed Eddie Mathews home address and said he charged $2 a sig! WOW! I took advantage and snagged 2 cards, but I'm sure others took much more advantage than I did. Those days are seemingly long gone...

 

[mrmopar]

I appreciate that and that is where you'd need a volume of players at that range. Like stlcardtrader said, $12 for a guy like Lezcano seems a bit steep. Sure, some will pay, but many won't. Lezcano probably sold a heck of a lot more @ $3 than Potter would at $12.

If you can get the high profit per signature, sure, go for it. Take Pete Vuckovich for instance. Lots of people collect All Stars and award winners. Less collect every player from a certain team. The lesser players fill that need to a lesser extent, but those collecting every Brewer or Cardinal vs. those collecting every Cy Young award winner probably differs greatly. In the end, we are willing to pay more for a guy like Vuckovich than we are for Lezcano. Now if Lezcano disappeared to Venezuela a year after retiring and was never heard from again, you'd have a little greater demand, but to what extent? Team collectors and set buildings and the occasional guy who just likes rare players. I still think he undersells Vuckovich.

Obviously he makes what he needs to to continue doing it and making it a business. That is great, but that still doesn't make me willing to pay more for an autograph than I normally would have, unless the need is there.

After spending time talking to him, without going in to details, it's nearly impossible to conduct these signings at a low fee as someone suggested. Just think about all the time it takes to handle all of the mail order, package everything, organize everything, etc. on top of all of the travel.

I think people forget he is trying to run a business while providing a service to collectors at the same time.

I think alot of what you are paying for is the service of the items being taken care of and access to signers that have hidden in the past.

 

[DaNotoriousNIC]

Yeah, he's trying to get exclusive deals with free signers from what I hear

 

[stlcardtrader]

Fantastic... someone else attempting to slowly kill TTM auto's...

Yeah, he's trying to get exclusive deals with free signers from what I hear

 

[stlcardtrader]

I don't have an issue payingan adequate signing fee for tougher signers or those that are challenging to get. My point is why would I want to pay a substantially increased price for a guy who is or was willing to sign for cheaper. In the Wally Moon example, you can send directly to him for $6 a card, on Potter's site it is $25. Getting 3 Sixto Lezcano cards isn't worth $36 to me, and honestly I doubt it would be to very many people. What kind of demand could Lezcano have at $3 that would justify a 400% price increase? If what has been mentioned above that Chris Potter Sports is trying to get free or cheap signers to sign exclusive contracts and increase the cost substantially to get these signers I don't see how that is helping anyone who collects autographs or making him a "friend" to the hobby. That is pretty much what I am moving to exclusively is autographs. If this trend continues it will probably run me out of the hobby. I can appreciate that this guy is attempting to run a business, but at the same time there has to be some give and take. I have sent to them on 4 occassions to get guys for my signed 1987 Topps set, but that was for guys that rarely sign, I see that as a service that I am willing to pay a bit for. Is it really a service if I can send to a guy for free or a few bucks and get him back in a couple weeks opposed to paying a guy an increased price so he can drive to meet the player and then mail my package back to me in my SASE in over 1 month? Like I said I don't have an issue with tougher guys but trying to make easier guys to get now tougher helps me in no way.

Just for examples sake on the current signings list and how the pricing compares to how they sign TTM, price at end of each line are Potter prices:


Art Howe (94% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Doug Drabek (93% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $8 for Cards
Wally Moon (87% Return Rate TTM - $6 Cards) - $25 Cards
Johnny Edwards (91% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Jim Sundberg (84% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Jimmy Wynn (93% Return Rate TTM - 1st Free - $5 Anything after that) - $15 for Cards
Walt Williams (95% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $20 for Cards
Wayne Terwilliger (87% Return Rate TTM - $5 for cards) - $15 for Cards
Don Stanhouse (72% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Max Alvis (97% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Danny Cater (97% Return Rate TTM - $14 per item) - $20 for Cards
Johnny Briggs (82% Return Rate TTM - $5 for Cards) - $12 for Cards
Morrie Steevens (90% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Lee Lacy (71% Return Rate TTM - $10 per item) - $15 for Cards
Merv Rettenmund (97% Return Rate TTM - FREE) $15 for Cards
Jim Marshall (93% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Wes Stock (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $10 for Cards
Kal Segrist (81% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Jack Harhsmann (89% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Carl Warwick (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Bob Skinner (98% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Hal W Smith (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Bennie Daniels (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Jerry Snyder (75% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Rod Gaspar (97% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Gary Ward (72% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Eddie Robinson (80% Return Rate TTM - $5 per item) - $15 for Cards
Jake Gibbs (98% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Roger Repoz (98% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Bob Meyer (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Norm Sherry (95% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Jim Campanis (85% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Curt Raydon (85% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Ed Erautt (97% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Carl Scheib (90% Return Rate TTM - $5 per item) - $15 for Cards
Willie Norwood (92% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards

So of the 57 signers for the January "Private Signings" 36 of them are very good TTM signers at over 70% return rate. There were also several at around 60%+ as well which I did not include in the above. If every player starts requiring $10 an auto, TTM will start dying off in no time. There won't be any auto'd set builders (who can pay $4000-6000 to put together a signed set?) The above is for cards only which is what I typically send out, other items are increased price. Just my opinions, everyone is entitled to their own. My wife already gives me enough grief buying stamps, envelopes, time trying to trade and locate as well as letter writing and mailing that takes away from her and my daughter.

After spending time talking to him, without going in to details, it's nearly impossible to conduct these signings at a low fee as someone suggested. Just think about all the time it takes to handle all of the mail order, package everything, organize everything, etc. on top of all of the travel.

I think people forget he is trying to run a business while providing a service to collectors at the same time.

I think alot of what you are paying for is the service of the items being taken care of and access to signers that have hidden in the past.

 

[tigsfan]

Yeah, he's trying to get exclusive deals with free signers from what I hear

That's what I've been seeing, as recently as Steve Sax going from a free signer to a CPS signer for ~$15.

 

[metrotheme]

I'm not here to speak on his behalf. When we spoke about the subject of people using him to handle their mail, he said that the players asked him to do so.


As for the prices he charges, that's all between whatever agreement folks have between him and the player. For some of these old-timers, people don't want to send multi-signed pieces TTM, and for the price it eases their minds.

I still give him props for traveling the country to do this by car. It's not easy.

 

[mrmopar]

For those below that sign, those prices are what I would consider appropriate prices for the careers they had. Lacy is a little high IMO, but he is a Dodger, so BONUS points for him! I'd pay $6 and $5 for the other three former Dodgers who apparently charge: Moon, Wynn and Terwilliger. Props to one time Dodgers Stanhouse, Campanis, Warwick and Sherry for being feebie signers too!

Cater charging $14 seems a bit steep, but he has a really cool 71 Topps card that begs to be signed. However of cards I have seen signed by him, many have a signature that would fit on a thumbnail! The guy apparently likes to write in tiny letters! Not sure why, but it surprised me to see he is 71 now. I guess I am still in the mindset that only guys who played in the 50s or earlier are that old, but in fact the guys who played in the 70s and 80s are getting up there now too!

On a sad note, I see at B-R.com that Andy Carey (among several others - Don Mueller, Randy Stein, Ted Beard, Bub Bloomfield and Rosman Garcia*) recently passed away, since I got off on a Dodger tangent.

* In the DR, South America, etc are the roads that bad or are the drivers that bad, or both? Another foreign car crash claims a former MLBer!

Just for examples sake on the current signings list:

POTTER PRICES
Art Howe (94% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Doug Drabek (93% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $8 for Cards
Wally Moon (87% Return Rate TTM - $6 Cards) - $25 Cards
Johnny Edwards (91% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Jim Sundberg (84% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Jimmy Wynn (93% Return Rate TTM - 1st Free - $5 Anything after that) - $15 for Cards
Walt Williams (95% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $20 for Cards
Wayne Terwilliger (87% Return Rate TTM - $5 for cards) - $15 for Cards
Don Stanhouse (72% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Max Alvis (97% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Danny Cater (97% Return Rate TTM - $14 per item) - $20 for Cards
Johnny Briggs (82% Return Rate TTM - $5 for Cards) - $12 for Cards
Morrie Steevens (90% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Lee Lacy (71% Return Rate TTM - $10 per item) - $15 for Cards
Merv Rettenmund (97% Return Rate TTM - FREE) $15 for Cards
Jim Marshall (93% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Wes Stock (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $10 for Cards
Kal Segrist (81% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Jack Harhsmann (89% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Carl Warwick (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Bob Skinner (98% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Hal W Smith (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Bennie Daniels (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Jerry Snyder (75% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Rod Gaspar (97% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Gary Ward (72% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Eddie Robinson (80% Return Rate TTM - $5 per item) - $15 for Cards
Jake Gibbs (98% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Roger Repoz (98% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Bob Meyer (96% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Norm Sherry (95% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Jim Campanis (85% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Curt Raydon (85% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards
Ed Erautt (97% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $15 for Cards
Carl Scheib (90% Return Rate TTM - $5 per item) - $15 for Cards
Willie Norwood (92% Return Rate TTM - FREE) - $12 for Cards

So of the 57 signers for the January "Private Signings" 36 of them are very good TTM signers at over 70% return rate. There were also several at around 60%+ as well which I did not include in the above. If every player starts requiring $10 an auto, TTM will start dying off in no time. There won't be any auto'd set builders (who can pay $4000-6000 to put together a signed set?) The above is for cards only which is what I typically send out, other items are increased price. Just my opinions, everyone is entitled to their own. My wife already gives me enough grief buying stamps, envelopes, time trying to trade and locate as well as letter writing and mailing that takes away from her and my daughter.

 

[mort]

Very interesting thread. While not a fan of CP, I can respect his attempt to make a living out of doing this. It can't possibly be easy. If he is close to his family, I can imagine it takes a toll. As fun as it would be, I could never do it.

Regarding the mail-handling service for players like Sax ... Who knows what really happened behind the scenes beforehand (did the players reach out to him w/o previous contact, or did he send out 5,000 little postcards to former major leaguers offering his service, or perhaps after a private signing he offered up the 'service'?) but I do believe CP is hurting the TTM hobby with the "handle the mail" service. Now if you look at it from another angle, CP *isn't* hurting the TTM hobby, eeBay is.

I hope CP is getting Steve Sax, et al to sign a contract agreeing to sign and return the cards in a timely manner. Nothing will tarnish his image faster than sending $15 to him for an auto, have your check cashed, and have to wait 9, 10, 12 months for your ball or card to come back. Once he mails a package out to a player with their compensation check, he can only hope they sign and return the cards promptly. (*Fingers crossed that nothing gets mixed up.*)

For some of these old-timers, people don't want to send multi-signed pieces TTM, and for the price it eases their minds.

This isn't always true. On more than one occasion, I have sent money on a special item only not to have it returned and the money "disappear."

Getting back to my original point, Potter can charge whatever he wants and attempt to alter the TTM industry in any way he wants. It's his choice. The American Way. Supply and demand will determine if his business succeeds. If you like what he's doing, support him. If you don't, look the other direction. Simple.

 

[metrotheme]

Do people think he's really hurting the TTM side after people send TTM requests with 5-6 cards and send to the same guy multiple times per year ... and then after all that, sell the cards on message boards or ebay?

I didn't get deep into him handling mail for others.

On the other hand, he has been able to get to guys that haven't touched their mail for years.

 

[stlcardtrader]

I think if it gets to the point where no one will sign a card for less than $10 at some point TTM will be fairly sparce? I can appreciate the opinions here and do agree that those who send to sell also do the rest of us great harm as fans and collectors. I think this situation is simply another piece that will eventually make TTM non existant or only for those willing to shell out big bucks to collect TTM. I had been laid off for quite some time and TTM was an effective way to take my mind off of the fact that the job market sucked and the situation at hand. Even in those times I didn't turn to TTM as a way to make money. There are always going to be people who attempt to take advantage of a situation and those willing to do things for free or for very little. I think with Chris Potter and the direction he appears to be attempting to take TTM by eliminating free and lower priced signers is definately a paradigm shift that may eliminate some of those who attempt to take advantage of a situation, but it will also increase price points for autograph collectors. At this point my Cardinals TTM and 87 Topps signed set collection has been a relatively cheap endeavor to this point, I just worry it won't be something that will be available for future collectors if these type of scenarios continue to prop up. Like I had mentioned I do not have an issue with someone trying to start a business and make the most of it, I guess at some point in down the road people will be attempting to sell us the air we breath... I think if the pricing wasn't such a dramatic increase on all those I listed above I personally wouldn't have as much of an issue. There is a local auto show that recently implemented a lower price for signed cards that was under $10 mainly in the $4-7 range for pretty much all signers, other items bumped up similar to Chris Potters. Honestly I just hate to see something I enjoy start to become ever more challenging and disappear from my life.

 

[greyminis]

for later

 

[metrotheme]

Who said he is trying to eliminate or take away free / lower priced TTM signers? Name the people that signed for FREE TTM in the 90% range that are now exclusively going through him?

Doing a private signing with a guy like Bobby Shantz (which he has) isn't going to stop Shantz from signing TTM generously like he's done for 60 years.

Case in point. He had Lenny Green a while back at $20 per signature. I wrote Green about a month after the signing and he signed two cards for me TTM for free.

People see him do signings with reliable TTM'ers and think he's trying to convert them all, he's not.

There are always going to be people who attempt to take advantage of a situation and those willing to do things for free or for very little. I think with Chris Potter and the direction he appears to be attempting to take TTM by eliminating free and lower priced signers is definately a paradigm shift that may eliminate some of those who attempt to take advantage of a situation, but it will also increase price points for autograph collectors.

 

[stlcardtrader]

I initially mentioned Sixto Lezcano who I had written to initially sometime ago, not sure of the exact date, I got a message back stating he charged $3 or $5 per auto via TTM. I delayed in getting a follow up back out to him, but when I did send one with the per card fee, I got a response back stating he had now signed an exclusive contract with Chris Potter Sports and now would not sign for less than $10 or $12 per auto, I wish I still had the letter he returned to me. That is my personal experience with the discussion in this thread. Sixto Lezcano currently has an 82% Return Rate TTM on SCN. Someone else on this thread had mentioned that he was attempting to get free signers to sign exclusive contracts, with my return from Lezcano, that statements carries a bit of merit with me. I never said he was trying to convert them all, I just said I hope that doesn't happen because I will no longer be able continue with my hobby. CPS has Wally Moon on a signing for Jan. I will be seeing Mr. Moon in about a week and I do plan on asking him about his interaction with CPS. If he confirms or denies any of the opinions and discussion here then I will post it.

Who said he is trying to eliminate or take away free / lower priced TTM signers? Name the people that signed for FREE TTM in the 90% range that are now exclusively going through him?

Doing a private signing with a guy like Bobby Shantz (which he has) isn't going to stop Shantz from signing TTM generously like he's done for 60 years.

Case in point. He had Lenny Green a while back at $20 per signature. I wrote Green about a month after the signing and he signed two cards for me TTM for free.

People see him do signings with reliable TTM'ers and think he's trying to convert them all, he's not.

 

[mort]

and then after all that, sell the cards on message boards or ebay?

I think you may have unintentionally used the wrong word here: "sell." I bet the sell-rate (percentage of something selling versus all the similar items available) for a Frank Tanana autographed baseball card (taking a very common / easy TTM autograph) is extremely low....even if the BIN or the starting bid is around a dollar. Maybe even single-digit percentage.

I can't imagine there's a market for selling easily obtained TTM cards on e Bay.

 

[montserratplay]

I think you may have unintentionally used the wrong word here: "sell." I bet the sell-rate (percentage of something selling versus all the similar items available) for a Frank Tanana autographed baseball card (taking a very common / easy TTM autograph) is extremely low....even if the BIN or the starting bid is around a dollar. Maybe even single-digit percentage.

I can't imagine there's a market for selling easily obtained TTM cards on e Bay.

I'm still really new to autograph collecting, but I a not sure how much e Bay buying I would do for these kinds of cards. If I get a card TTM, I know it was at least somewhere near the player. In an online auction, there's always the possibility that it's some weirdo in his basement practicing Stan Musial's signature.

I would, however, purchase or trade from folks here or on SCN, as there's a much higher level of trust. And mort makes a good point. Why spend your time faking Frank Tanana cards and waste all of the time and money it takes to sell them on e Bay?