You say you fully trust PSA/DNA? Read here...
- Thread starter mrmopar
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a laser copy is pretty bad, but at least its of a legit sig and not a fake lol.
PSA is just an opinion...i've got a Jordan i had signed IP i cant get slabbed...go figure.
PSA is just an opinion...i've got a Jordan i had signed IP i cant get slabbed...go figure.
Exactly, but one lots of people will not question at all. This is evidenced by the prices people will pay for graded autos when the same cards can be had uncertified for a fraction of the cost.
I just want to remind people that just because the card is certified doesn't mean it's real...EVEN with PSA/DNA, and just because it isn't certified doesn't mean it's fake.
I just want to remind people that just because the card is certified doesn't mean it's real...EVEN with PSA/DNA, and just because it isn't certified doesn't mean it's fake.
Very eye opening...................Thanks for sharing..................Mike
H
houbb
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I'm not a big fan of authenticators but they do serve a purpose. Think about how many items they get each month to authenticate. They get the new guys and the vintage stuff to examine. Often times, they err on the side of caution. Case in point the Jordan example above. A living player example of someone like Jordan, Jeter, A-Rod, or Pujols acquired IP is almost never passed these days. Why? Because those authenticators don't want to take that risk. I understand James Spence, at JSA, checks out a vintage item twice, sometimes three times, before he puts his stamp of approval on an item. Authenticators also do a lot more research than you or I would do. For example, I don't recall which company, whether it was PSA/DNA or JSA, who uncovered about a year ago another example of a Ted Williams clubhouse ghost sig on team balls from a certain period in the '50's. For years these were considered authentic and now are considered clubhouse fakes. Williams wasn't by any means the first to use a Clubhouse attendant to fake his sig and won't be the last. Authenticators bring those to light.
Are sigs still certified as authentic that still aren't the real deal? Of course. You're paying for an opinion. Who knows how many sigs that authenticator looked at that day before authenticating that one. When mistakes are made I don't think it's because they are lazy. It's probably because they are human. Humans make mistakes.
Are sigs still certified as authentic that still aren't the real deal? Of course. You're paying for an opinion. Who knows how many sigs that authenticator looked at that day before authenticating that one. When mistakes are made I don't think it's because they are lazy. It's probably because they are human. Humans make mistakes.
With PSA, you pay for the opinion. If the lay collector is to buy an autograph that is not certified, say at a swap meet, and such collector knows little about the hobby and how to spot a fake, PSA is a very valuable tool. The odds of the card being fake are about less than 1% if it's in that PSA case, and that's a much better percentage than just buying the auto and hoping for the best. It's also a great tool if you can't actually examine the card, as in the case of ebay. The only way to assure that there are no mistakes in grading is to have computers grade the cards, which is impossible, since there are so many variables when assessing a signature and card. For that very reason, people sometimes get it wrong. They do all the research possible and make the best possible decision based on their years of experience and resources at hand. If I picked a lottery ticket and won 99.9% of the time, I wouldn't be doing too bad. PSA is still a safe bet. What do you guys think?
overall though...across the board...i think if you are going to buy an autographed item...you are much better off going with PSA or JSA than just buying something blind.
I'm sure there are some fakes that get through...but, thats just part of it...there is no way they can be 100% sure about everything.
I think that buying PSA/JSA stuff greatly reduces the consumer risk of getting a fake item though in the big picture.
I'm sure there are some fakes that get through...but, thats just part of it...there is no way they can be 100% sure about everything.
I think that buying PSA/JSA stuff greatly reduces the consumer risk of getting a fake item though in the big picture.
Reading the rest of the articles on that blog should convince all of us to avoid these "authenticators" altogether.
Regarding James Spence, the PSA/DNA guy:
Before James Spence became an authenticator he worked as a fitness instructor at Club Med and for Cunard Cruise Lines, as a salesman for American Van Equipment and as a ladder salesman for the Lynn Ladder Company until he was fired from the Orwigsberg, PA, firm in 1991. In all of this time Spence had no formal training that could qualify him as a handwriting expert. In PSA/DNA advertisements published as early as 2002, Spence and his then PSA counterpart, Steve Grad, boasted of having “40 years combined expertise in the industry.”
Regarding James Spence, the PSA/DNA guy:
Before James Spence became an authenticator he worked as a fitness instructor at Club Med and for Cunard Cruise Lines, as a salesman for American Van Equipment and as a ladder salesman for the Lynn Ladder Company until he was fired from the Orwigsberg, PA, firm in 1991. In all of this time Spence had no formal training that could qualify him as a handwriting expert. In PSA/DNA advertisements published as early as 2002, Spence and his then PSA counterpart, Steve Grad, boasted of having “40 years combined expertise in the industry.”
This is exactly why I won't to get anything certified. They can't prove 100% that it's real or not just as much as I can't. I have never understood it personally, but I guess it makes some people feel better about their collections.
THere is another really interesting article about some Babe Ruth baseballs that they had authenticated. They were sued and stated it is our "opinion"
that they are real. I too got a Jordan 8x10 IP and thought of sending it in until I realized I would never sell it and I know its real. If I were going to sell
I have enough Provenance to prove it is real. I lived 3 doors from the Bulls Team Physician who took me to the game. I had him write on the back of the 8x10 that he witnessed it and I put the ticket stub on the back as well. I did not know that taping it on was a bad thing. I was new to the hobby but had been told by Dr. Biel to do this as it would be worth something in the future. I also wonder about so called experts who have not had multiple examples of players autos. I have 6 Bobby Floyd Autos that I have gotten from him over the last 20 years as he is my neighbor. They are all different. I will at some point i will do a post on it and show the differences. Also sometimes the way it is signed like on a flat table ( Jordan) or hand held, hand held on the knee...there are so many variables....
If they did not see it signed personally how can they say with certainty it is real.......
that they are real. I too got a Jordan 8x10 IP and thought of sending it in until I realized I would never sell it and I know its real. If I were going to sell
I have enough Provenance to prove it is real. I lived 3 doors from the Bulls Team Physician who took me to the game. I had him write on the back of the 8x10 that he witnessed it and I put the ticket stub on the back as well. I did not know that taping it on was a bad thing. I was new to the hobby but had been told by Dr. Biel to do this as it would be worth something in the future. I also wonder about so called experts who have not had multiple examples of players autos. I have 6 Bobby Floyd Autos that I have gotten from him over the last 20 years as he is my neighbor. They are all different. I will at some point i will do a post on it and show the differences. Also sometimes the way it is signed like on a flat table ( Jordan) or hand held, hand held on the knee...there are so many variables....
If they did not see it signed personally how can they say with certainty it is real.......
My point is not to say PSA or any of the professional authenticators should be perfect. I suspect anyone doing this will make mistakes from time to time. I agree that humans make mistakes, however I believe that those not too knowledgeable in the autograph industry (i.e. most collectors) have grown to place this company on a pedestal and will trust them w/o a second thought. Heck, just in this small sample, see how many have already excused the mistake. If you paid $1K+ for this "mistake", would you see it that way still? I guess I'd need to see that laser print item to know how real it looked, but I think something like that is inexcusable!
I am not in the market for extremely rare and/or expensive signatures, so I guess I am willing to take my chances in buying raw items from dealers or sites I feel that I can trust or do my own limited research on items that I can only see on a two dimensional computer image. I'd rather get burned and only have myself to blame than to let some experts tell me what to buy and still get burned occasionally.
Seeing this article, watching the Sal Bando video and viewing other industry news sites have convinced me to trust nobody when it comes to forking over inflated $$ for "authenticated" items.
I am not in the market for extremely rare and/or expensive signatures, so I guess I am willing to take my chances in buying raw items from dealers or sites I feel that I can trust or do my own limited research on items that I can only see on a two dimensional computer image. I'd rather get burned and only have myself to blame than to let some experts tell me what to buy and still get burned occasionally.
Seeing this article, watching the Sal Bando video and viewing other industry news sites have convinced me to trust nobody when it comes to forking over inflated $$ for "authenticated" items.
dont they also carry some sort of insurance to cover issues like this though? seems like i read it somewhere on their page.
these guys are also in the business of selling memorabilia,so woulndn't it benifet them to deny or not certify others items!
here is why im starting to question psa, look at this link of a trevor hoffman auto, look good huh? look a little closer, psa slabbed it as a1958 topps hoffman..i knew hoffman pitched a long time, but not that long! just goes to show you, they are not really paying attention to their certifications, they are getting them out as quick as they can and not paying attention time is money...but really i have a 1958 topps trevor hoffman auto ! come on guys,. for the money i paid to get this authenticated auto, slow it down and get it right guys!
https://picasaweb.google.com/102892181139379137478/2000sAllStarAutosPCNFT?authuser=0&feat=directlink (click on card to enlarge it.)
with that being said, with my autos, i collect for my PC and my PC only, not for resale, so for me, now i am fine with autos that are not psa, jsa authenticated because i dont plan on selling them just passing them down to my kids, know if i was going to resell, then psa is a good company and worth the investment costs.
https://picasaweb.google.com/102892181139379137478/2000sAllStarAutosPCNFT?authuser=0&feat=directlink (click on card to enlarge it.)
with that being said, with my autos, i collect for my PC and my PC only, not for resale, so for me, now i am fine with autos that are not psa, jsa authenticated because i dont plan on selling them just passing them down to my kids, know if i was going to resell, then psa is a good company and worth the investment costs.
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Thanks for the information....heard about the first one...but not the second one!! Best regards, David
i'd love to see that jordan if you've got a scan. and hear the story behind it, was it at a game, golf outing etc....
please pm me with the info
thanx,
paul
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