Your Thoughts on PSA/DNA, JSA and Gai?

[Hawaiian BamBam]

what are your thoughts on Your Thoughts on authenticating services such as PSA/DNA, JSA and Gai? seems like they are getting tons of bad publicity lately. some serious concerns about all of these companies lately. what are your thoughts, concerns, advice. i think its best now to focus on manufactur certified autographs, because these will soon be worthless(psa, jsa, etc) once the media gets a hold of any scams/fraud with these companies. i personally think it is going to erupt in the next year or 2 when these companies get exposed. im screwed either way as i have hundreds if not thousands of psa/dna certified cards your thoughts please.

 

[mrmopar]

What is your end goal here? To achieve personal enjoyment from the hobby, sock away a potential investment, flipping or something else?

People need to do their homework and buy what they are comfortable with. Only a fool would buy an aftermarket certified autograph ONLY because it was certified and slabbed without even considering it might be a fake or a mistake. There have been a number of high profile documented cases where the majors have slabbed fake autographs. If that Sal Bando video doesn't at least cast some doubt in everyone's minds, then I feel sorry for those who still believe unconditionally.

Look at the signatures, compare them to known exemplars and use the same caution you would with any other purchase of something you don't have intimate knowledge of. These companies may have experts and they may have wanna be experts. Do some research on those companies as well and the people they use to make that call on your autographs. What makes them an expert? What credentials do they have?

I think the companies you mention fill a need for those who don't want to do their homework or feel that the certification from an "expert" will ease their concerns. Those buyers need that cushion of comfort that the certification provides them. I actually find it amusing that people will pay so much more for these "certified" autographs than they would for the exact same raw card, also signed and looking quite legitimate. Let me assure you that there is no shortage of people out there willing to buy non-certified autos on vintage cards, as evidenced by the fact that I often lose out to others.

Heck, look at most manufactured "cuts" cards. Although they usually provide a slightly more desirable collectibility with a fancy frame, card manufacturer name stamp and low serial numbering, those were just 3x5s in most cases that many people passed on for a few dollars, yet those same people will turn around and fork out $100+ for a "certified cut" using that same $5 3x5 auto that they wouldn't buy.

I have long been comfortable buying vintage signed cards. Although I maintain that any number of my cards COULD be fake, I expect that most are real. I have tried to stick with sellers who have longevity and whom I trust, I do my homework by comparing signatures I am less familiar with and I am just being cautious in general. In the process I have spent much less than those who only buy "certified" vintage. There are people out there who will look to burn you though, and the after market companies won't always protect you either.

 

[BoomerSooner]

Tons of bad publicity LATELY? Where have you been? This argument has been going on at least 15 years. LOL

 

[Hawaiian BamBam]

ive been here funny guy! so what are YOUR thoughts on this?

 

[BoomerSooner]

I never pay people to give me their opinion.

 

[mrmopar]

Do you buy or have you ever bought a Beckett price guide or service? If so, then you already have paid someone for their opinion.

I never pay people to give me their opinion.

 

[valediction]

Caveat emptor, always. Do your own due dilligence, buy what YOU are comfortable with. As Curt pointed out, I'm always amazed at the people who will drop 3 figures on an autograph because Topps bought it, cut it up, and slipped it in a frame, so it HAS to be real, but until they did that, it sat on ebay for $4.99 opening bid and $2 s/h. In some cases, they pay companies like PSA/DNA or JSA to authenticate the stuff they buy. In one of your other threads about authentications, I've already pointed out the Upper Deck 'certified' cut of Ray Dandridge that is Henrietta Dandridge's autograph as clear as can be. It's HER name on the index card! What about sticker autographs. Unless you see the player physically sign the item in front of you, at some point, you're taking someone's word that it's genuine. Do you really think some boardroom executive at Topps/UD/Leaf is more of an expert on Phil Ortega or Al Lopez autographs than you, or PSA, or someone who has been collecting autographs for decades? Or a dealer who has been getting cards signed at shows they set up at for over 30 years? Buy from people you trust, do your homework, and trust your judgement.

 

[houbb]

Caveat emptor, always. Do your own due dilligence, buy what YOU are comfortable with. As Curt pointed out, I'm always amazed at the people who will drop 3 figures on an autograph because Topps bought it, cut it up, and slipped it in a frame, so it HAS to be real, but until they did that, it sat on ebay for $4.99 opening bid and $2 s/h. In some cases, they pay companies like PSA/DNA or JSA to authenticate the stuff they buy. In one of your other threads about authentications, I've already pointed out the Upper Deck 'certified' cut of Ray Dandridge that is Henrietta Dandridge's autograph as clear as can be. It's HER name on the index card! What about sticker autographs. Unless you see the player physically sign the item in front of you, at some point, you're taking someone's word that it's genuine. Do you really think some boardroom executive at Topps/UD/Leaf is more of an expert on Phil Ortega or Al Lopez autographs than you, or PSA, or someone who has been collecting autographs for decades? Or a dealer who has been getting cards signed at shows they set up at for over 30 years? Buy from people you trust, do your homework, and trust your judgement.

Well put. Well said. What you pay for from these authentication companies is an opinion. It's their opinion. That's it. If they slab it and authenticate it then they put their stamp of aproval on it. Do they make mistakes? Yes. Do they make a lot of mistakes when they certify authentics? Well, I would be surprised if they did. Here's why. These major authenticators take a pass on a lot of major players, such as Pujols, A-Rod, and Jeter, unless the sig comes from that player's charity or foundation. I've seen authentic examples of Pujol's and Josh Hamilton signed right in front of me that PSA/DNA took a pass on. They wouldn't authenticate them. What does that mean? That just means the number of authentic examples in their registry is artificially low. There are other authentic examples out there but they just won't authenticate them. Not right now, any way.

There really isn't anything wrong with an authenticator such as those, just remember you're paying for an opinion...not the sig. Often times that $100 authenticated item is a $5 cut sig. Even after it's authenticated it's still a $5 cut sig. Kind of like those Mint 10 cards I think Tri-Star came out with a few years ago. For $5 or $10, whatever it was, you had a chance to pull a vintage graded card. I think I picked up two of those to see what I might pull. Well, I pulled a couple of cards that were graded a gem mint 10-a 1990 Fred Mcgriff Fleer and a 1986 Topps Brett Saberhagen. Whoopie. I might have paid $20 for the pair, but they were then and still are worth only pennies. The slab doesn't enhance their value. The same is said of an authenticated sig.

 

[BoomerSooner]

Do you buy or have you ever bought a Beckett price guide or service? If so, then you already have paid someone for their opinion.

Nope. A few folks here can testify I trade without a BV. But I'd argue that Beckett is not wholly an opinion but based on statistical research from dealers.

 

[mrmopar]

That is certainly a stretch calling dealer survey data research, but I know what you are saying.

Nope. A few folks here can testify I trade without a BV. But I'd argue that Beckett is not wholly an opinion but based on statistical research from dealers.

 

[BoomerSooner]

That is certainly a stretch calling dealer survey data research, but I know what you are saying.

Where's valediction when I need him? He explains this so much better than I do, LOL.

 

[mrmopar]

No need. I have always thought Beckett's pricing was more opinion than fact. The dealer surveys were probably not a large enough of a sample to accurately record real price fluctuations, but I could be wrong. I wasn't there. Beckett did have a degree in statistics if I remember correctly.

I still want to know where the guys are that are paying for those $2-10 cards from the overproduced years. The BVs are still there, but nobody is paying those prices!

 

[jrchoholic83]

I don't think that everyone blindly puts their faith into 3rd party authentication, that's not why the value is so high. People are paying more for the piece of mind, the fact that if they buy it encased by a 3rd party that it will retain it's value and they won't lose money on it. I see PSA/JSA etc as an insurance policy more than anything else.

 

[BoomerSooner]

I don't think that everyone blindly puts their faith into 3rd party authentication, that's not why the value is so high. People are paying more for the piece of mind, the fact that if they buy it encased by a 3rd party that it will retain it's value and they won't lose money on it. I see PSA/JSA etc as an insurance policy more than anything else.

I agree. Folks want an "expert" to tell them it's real, it's good and it's going to be worth good money. Unfortunately, it appears that almost anyone can be an expert and there is little to no regulation regarding the business. And with every single graded autograph that is certified as real but is obviously not, the experts look less & less worth the money.

Quote:"No need. I have always thought Beckett's pricing was more opinion than fact. The dealer surveys were probably not a large enough of a sample to accurately record real price fluctuations, but I could be wrong. I wasn't there. Beckett did have a degree in statistics if I remember correctly.

I still want to know where the guys are that are paying for those $2-10 cards from the overproduced years. The BVs are still there, but nobody is paying those prices!"

Frankly, I didn't know that Beckett was doing dealer surveys until valediction pointed it out to me. I still don't believe it, mostly becasue wouldn't that be a full time job? How many shows are there each month in the states? How many dealers are there? That would seem to be a ton of data to compile and translate to numbers..

 

[houbb]

Of course it would be a full time job. Beckett is a full time business. So, I have no doubt someone does the statistical analysis to compile that. I do, however, agree with mrmopar, as I laugh every time I look at those Beckett price guide figures for those late '80's cards.