Comment that got me thinking (Discussion)

[worldwideed]

I did a little editing to the quote for two reasons; to protect the original posters aninimity and to convert to something understandable.

What I hate most are the success posts that clutter up the board more than anything. Who cares that you got two in the mail autos from non star cards? I've seen several post three different ones in a row.

I have so many problems with this statement that it's difficult to properly convey what it is exactly that bothers me so much about it without over posting or overstating my case.

First, before I came this this forum in 2005 I was a member of a few other forums that were much smaller but had a user base that was all about collecting superstars. I would often post wants for Joey Cora and Raul Ibanez and would immediately get mocked, 'Why are you collecting those guys", etc. I always thought to myself that I'm the only one here that collects just because he likes it. And even got resentful toward people who I thought were trying to turn a profit or collected someone ONLY because they were a superstar. This still bothers me some.

Second, am I the only one impressed with 'common' players? Even to get to the show you have to be in the top 1% of your field worldwide. To me that is at the very least worthy of our recognition if not our fandom. Do you know how many hits you would get off of Carlos Silva in 1,000 ABs, 0 that's how many.

I understand this user has to be in the minority because we have so many diverse collectors here. Also, if most people really were only interested in Jeter, Pujols, Arod, and Lincecum then only those players would be available in packs.

Still I think this statement is typical of a growing attitude in the collecting world amongst the younger generation, anything not high end is junk, and any player who is not a superstar is a absolute bum.

Discuss

 

[BiggioDiogu759]

I agree. Its the same with base cards...seems like no one wants them...

 

[loftheb]

I did a little editing to the quote for two reasons; to protect the original posters aninimity and to convert to something understandable.



I have so many problems with this statement that it's difficult to properly convey what it is exactly that bothers me so much about it without over posting or overstating my case.

As someone who does not do TTMs, (and didn't know how big of a hobby it was until 18 months ago), I find the subject fascinating. I check out a good amount of the successes here, even though I've never sent a card out. It's pretty amazing to see how tight of a community the TTMers are, updating people with addresses and status of signers.

I don't think TTMing is for me, but I can see how it would be addicting and wonderfully satisfying as a hobby.

Still I think this statement is typical of a growing attitude in the collecting world amongst the younger generation, anything not high end is junk, and any player who is not a superstar is a absolute bum.

Discuss

And, here is the card companies' huge dilemma in a nutshell. At this point, it's useless to argue if the companies herded the collectors this way or if it was what collectors demanded - what is relevant is that there is a problem.

Do the companies bend to the rapidly shrinking "new generation" of collectors, only searching for 1/1 or Jeter or Pujols or something they can flip to sell, or do they ignore the "new generation" and keep what collectors they have by producing large sets year after year.

I think this is where the market was waaaay over-saturated with product in the early 2000s. Just too much throwing of proverbial crap to see what sticks to proverbial walls. Companies were clueless to where to take the hobby.

Hopefully they can find the balance.

-Casey

 

[worldwideed]

Casey, great post. I can't wait to see how UD does with their massive 600 card base set w/o logos. Should be interesting. They sure are dragging their feet on releasing images though. The set is due out in 6 weeks and still no image preview.

 

[scottzoe]

Well put.

There is definitely a large percentage of "collectors" out there who are only card flippers (and not in the sense of flipping them against the wall). I can't tell how many guys seem to be "selling my PC" every week...(OK maybe a slight exaggeration.) and then starting a new PC the next week.

I also see a scenario like this in my attempted trades quite often....
I am looking for Red Sox commons and inserts and the other trader ONLY will trade for my Auto's, Game used, or Vintage, saying they don't collect junk!
Well, no trade there...if a trader is only looking for high end cards, what are they doing offering only low end cards for trade? And what do they expect, I will trade a 1958 Aaron for 100 $1.00 cards?

Anyway, I am a fan of my local team since the mid 70's and have seen stars come and go. I am just as thrilled to get a Luis Tiant, Doug Griffin, Rick Burleson, or any other other player as I am to pick up a Ted Williams, Yaz, or Nomar. (in fact, I think today, Nomar is being relegated to most collectors common bin which works out well for me!).

I know there are prospectors out there, people who change their collections every week, and those who get a thrill out of busting $100 a pack boxes.
There are those who are loyal to one team only and those who collect a select few players, whether they are Superstars or just a player who inspired them or touched them in some way.
Then there are those who put together full sets.
Myself, I am happiest digging through a box of commons for 10 cents each and picking out the players I want, finishing my Sox team sets, and putting together my annual Topps set.

I guess I just ignore those who ridicule others for their collecting choices and tend to deal with those who think more like me. Who knows, maybe one of those high dollar collectors will donate all their unwanted junk Red Sox to me some day!

Scott

 

[bdink25]

I always like to look at all of the posts that I can as time permits. I thought that this was a hobby. It is to me and it has many facets. I'm always excited when someone gets something that they had spent time in getting. I also look to see if I can help someone out as I may have something here that is not part of my collection. What good is it to me and not share?? Maybe if this site isn't acceptable to some, I would suggest not hanging around. I like it here very much. Keep collecting folks.

 

[nexus8793]

For my first post on here in probably 6 months, maybe even a year, I have to agree with you, Ed. I feel very much in the minority when I am trying to collect autos of everyone who played in 1998, or every All-Star (despite the name, your average fan/collector hasn't heard of 80-90% of the All-Stars over the years). Most people would see my threads and just see a list of random washed up no-names, but for me, it was the players that connected me most to a point in my past and were, in reality, pretty good baseball players regardless of how "well" they turned out. The focus on stars can make things difficult, it's one of the things that drove me to take a break, a rather small part, it was mostly because I didn't have the time or the money, but I think it's more of an issue of to each his own.

 

[jimmyharcar]

I love reading about people's different collections and seeing what interests them. I am not of fan of the collecting of prospects and flipping them.

As for the TTM successes, it does not interest me and I have no interest in reading about them. But, I know a lot of people do, so I ignore the posts. If it bumps my posts down, who cares? I can always bump it a few days later. There seems to be a lot of folks on here who do the TTM, so it is a great feature for them.

 

[cadets68]

I am not a player collector. But I am a set collector. I agree with your general statement. I have also been turned off by people only looking to flip or that are only interested in the superstars and I will also add the prospectors. When I read a signature that says I only collect... (insert the 3 hottest prospects here) I ignore the post completely.

It is also hard to trade with the superstar chasers. I need 4 commons from him/her and they want some Pujols/Jeter/Arod inserts.

Everyone collects their own way, but generally these types of collectors do not stick with the hobby very long.

I guess I am boring. I posted a few months ago about a 1955 Don Mossi rookie that I picked. I have been chasing a nice copy of that card for years. After posting I had a few negative comments. It is a common but it has value to me. He was no superstar but a decent player. I have been collecting for over 30 years and learned a long time ago that there is more to this hobby to me than money.

Oh well, just my little rant to add to the discussion.

Shawn

 

[robert326]

Ed as you probably know, most of my collection (specifically the Jewish players) are commons (not even minor stars). Not to me of course, but to most people, the likes of John Grabow, Craig Breslow, Gabe Kapler, Jason Marquis, Elliott Maddox, etc. are commons. I'd stop short of calling it "resentment" but I used to have a similar sentiment towards people that collect only superstar players for the "value" as opposed to for "fun." I do keep some inserts/#'d/SP's, etc. of guys like Pujols, A-Rod, Griffey, etc. on hand for trade bait, as most traders do.

I am sure most real fans have some "fan-favorite" type of player they remember from childhood. This guy was usually not the one with the best stats or the most fame...but the one that came through for your team. I can remember clearly telling my friend during lunchtime on the playground (this was in the 3rd grade) that my favorite was Howard Johnson. HoJo was always a productive hitter in the middle of the Mets lineup, even was one of the first 30-30 guys in baseball. But for one glorious summer (1991, that is), HoJo lit up the baseball world with 38 homers and 117 RBI (yes, those stats actually led the league then ). A few years back, I finally had the opportunity to meet HoJo at a card show. He was exactly as I hoped he'd be...friendly, humble, truly caring about the fans. Moments like that keep me in the hobby.

I've veered off-topic but hopefully have added a couple of points with which people can identify.

 

[worldwideed]

Scott, great post here.

Well put.

There is definitely a large percentage of "collectors" out there who are only card flippers (and not in the sense of flipping them against the wall). I can't tell how many guys seem to be "selling my PC" every week...(OK maybe a slight exaggeration.) and then starting a new PC the next week.

I always find myself thinking, It's not a PC if your so easily willing to trade it.

I also see a scenario like this in my attempted trades quite often....
I am looking for Red Sox commons and inserts and the other trader ONLY will trade for my Auto's, Game used, or Vintage, saying they don't collect junk!
Well, no trade there...if a trader is only looking for high end cards, what are they doing offering only low end cards for trade? And what do they expect, I will trade a 1958 Aaron for 100 $1.00 cards?

This is basically what is killing me right now. I simply don't have 'hot' cards to trade because I don't do much pack ripping and if I do spend money it's on something for my PC. This is also why I don't get involved in the BV versus SV versus eBay value threads. All cards are different. I'll give you 200 2005 Topps Heritage commons for that same Aaron. Why not? BVs are the same!!! lol.

Anyway, I am a fan of my local team since the mid 70's and have seen stars come and go. I am just as thrilled to get a Luis Tiant, Doug Griffin, Rick Burleson, or any other other player as I am to pick up a Ted Williams, Yaz, or Nomar. (in fact, I think today, Nomar is being relegated to most collectors common bin which works out well for me!).

Tiant, Burleson, and Nomar all had fine careers but if I was a 13 year old who had only been collecting for a year I might dismiss them as commons or nobodies. Again I say youth is wasted on the young.

 

[robert326]

For my first post on here in probably 6 months, maybe even a year, I have to agree with you, Ed. I feel very much in the minority when I am trying to collect autos of everyone who played in 1998, or every All-Star (despite the name, your average fan/collector hasn't heard of 80-90% of the All-Stars over the years). Most people would see my threads and just see a list of random washed up no-names, but for me, it was the players that connected me most to a point in my past and were, in reality, pretty good baseball players regardless of how "well" they turned out. The focus on stars can make things difficult, it's one of the things that drove me to take a break, a rather small part, it was mostly because I didn't have the time or the money, but I think it's more of an issue of to each his own.

Excellent point there. When we can link a card or player with a precious memory, that (to me) makes the experience worthwhile.

I am not a player collector. But I am a set collector. I agree with your general statement. I have also been turned off by people only looking to flip or that are only interested in the superstars and I will also add the prospectors. When I read a signature that says I only collect... (insert the 3 hottest prospects here) I ignore the post completely.

It is also hard to trade with the superstar chasers. I need 4 commons from him/her and they want some Pujols/Jeter/Arod inserts.

Everyone collects their own way, but generally these types of collectors do not stick with the hobby very long.

I guess I am boring. I posted a few months ago about a 1955 Don Mossi rookie that I picked. I have been chasing a nice copy of that card for years. After posting I had a few negative comments. It is a common but it has value to me. He was no superstar but a decent player. I have been collecting for over 30 years and learned a long time ago that there is more to this hobby to me than money.

Oh well, just my little rant to add to the discussion.

Shawn

Finding a card like that can be a big success. In fact, the last show I attended, I flipped through a binder of 1955 Topps. 5 or 6 pages into the book, I found a Lou Limmer card I needed. I passed over stars, HOFers, etc. without a second look. Getting that card in decent shape for a few dollars made my day. From the same seller, I looked through a binder of Kellogg's 3-D cards. Again, I passed over "valuable" cards...the likes of Reggie Jackson, Lou Brock, Johnny Bench, etc. I picked out Mike Epstein and Joel Horlen. Like the Limmer, these were 2 cards I needed for player collections.


On a semi-related note, I've been thinking recently that we used to have many more dedicated player collectors here. Don't know exactly how to explain it. One hypothesis I came up with...as our favorite players retire and in turn, have no new cards being produced, player collectors find themselves having to change their focus. Some understandably break up their collections, or focus on other things (building sets, team collecting, theme collecting, etc.)

 

[jrchoholic83]

I can't believe someone would even say that! TTMing isn't for everybody, but the main reasons that I like it are:

1. You get to dig through your old commons for cards that you normally wouldn't care all that much about, and when you get them back signed they quickly become part of the PC, or good trade bait.

2. As a team collector, any Mets or Raiders auto is as good as Pujols or Jeter to me!

3. Getting home from work (especially after a rough day) and finding a TTM in the mail is one of the best feelings as a collector.

4. I really enjoy the success board for many reasons, but mostly because it has daily posts with updated addresses and info, it's always nice to take a look at what people have recieved lately. Without this free option (being as cheap as I am) I probably would be searching the web for addresses that may or may not be outdated, as opposed to spending money on sportscollectors.net or something similar.

5. The TTM community here on the Bench is full of amazing, and generous collectors.


My .02,

Jeremy

 

[worldwideed]

2. As a team collector, any Mets or Raiders auto is as good as Pujols or Jeter to me!

3. Getting home from work (especially after a rough day) and finding a TTM in the mail is one of the best feelings as a collector.

Jeremy

Amen to these two. I would trade some of my best cards for autos of guys who played no more than a few innings. Funny.

Also I TOTALLY agree with #3. Besides the excitement of seeing my family of course finding that little white envelope in the mail box is the most exciting part of the day.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

On a semi-related note, I've been thinking recently that we used to have many more dedicated player collectors here. Don't know exactly how to explain it. One hypothesis I came up with...as our favorite players retire and in turn, have no new cards being produced, player collectors find themselves having to change their focus. Some understandably break up their collections, or focus on other things (building sets, team collecting, theme collecting, etc.)

This goes well with the discussion, but it depends on who you're collecting.

Mike Schmidt's had more cards produced in the last decade than he had during his 18-year career.

 

[bdink25]

Excellent point there. When we can link a card or player with a precious memory, that (to me) makes the experience worthwhile.


Finding a card like that can be a big success. In fact, the last show I attended, I flipped through a binder of 1955 Topps. 5 or 6 pages into the book, I found a Lou Limmer card I needed. I passed over stars, HOFers, etc. without a second look. Getting that card in decent shape for a few dollars made my day. From the same seller, I looked through a binder of Kellogg's 3-D cards. Again, I passed over "valuable" cards...the likes of Reggie Jackson, Lou Brock, Johnny Bench, etc. I picked out Mike Epstein and Joel Horlen. Like the Limmer, these were 2 cards I needed for player collections.


On a semi-related note, I've been thinking recently that we used to have many more dedicated player collectors here. Don't know exactly how to explain it. One hypothesis I came up with...as our favorite players retire and in turn, have no new cards being produced, player collectors find themselves having to change their focus. Some understandably break up their collections, or focus on other things (building sets, team collecting, theme collecting, etc.)

I would like to say that I'm excited for you that you obtained cards that you've been wanting. Congrats!!! I'm a Bonds collector and I know that there isn't a shortage of his cards available for trade or sale. A lot of people don't like him for his attitude and the things he's done but he is/was still a great ball player with God given talent. I'm leaving it at that. I haven't branched out much as I do collect Steelers cards and what is listed in my sig. Hope 2010 is a great collecting year for everyone......$0.02

 

[DaNotoriousNIC]

Well ed I think you have an idea on my thoughts on that lol, one of the main reasons I seldomly go to Pat Neshek's board is because its almost everyone over there that are just after the high end stuff or when they have the lower end stuff they are trading its all of a sudden over priced and worth trading for something highend. As far as TTM goes, what other way if you are a big nut of "fill in your team here" are you going to manage to get as many autograph's of players that aren't someone you can buy a certified version of?

Figure it this way, obviously I'm a Tigers fan and I get a return from a Jeff Larish, a Neil Berry, Orlando Mercado or a Jim Donohue. Most people probably don't have a clue who any of those guys are other then Tigers fans or a set collector. Good luck finding a certified autograph of any of those guys though as a Tigers fan. I honesty appreciate the autographs of the no name guys most people could care less about more then I would of lets say Pujols or a Jeter. Now while I don't have either and would definately love to add them to my collection one day when it all comes down to it its what you want to collect. There are many of us on this board that collect specific teams, religious players, players from a specific country, etc. We all could probably sit and make a list (which most of us probably do on our own website) Reading the list would probably bore many people on this board and they would think thats just a buncha junk auto's. Then if you were to sit and look at all of the auto's together I bet majority of the members who don't TTM would think I should do that with all my old "junk commons" for my "fill in your team" collection and would probably be much more impressed with a TTMers collection.

Simply put I would much rather myself look at a collection of a few hundred DIFFERENT autographs from a specific team then I would look at a collection of a hundred different high end players autographs. Yeah there obviously is going to be a big difference if both were to go and sell the collections but last I checked the hobby didn't begin for majority of us on who could get the most money out of their cards. If your wanting to gamble on the bang for your buck why not just go buy some scratch offs or go to the casino. Ok I'm done now.

 

[theplasticman]

Still I think this statement is typical of a growing attitude in the collecting world amongst the younger generation, anything not high end is junk, and any player who is not a superstar is a absolute bum.

Discuss

Not sure there is much else I could say.

 

[JamesNevans]

This is one of the reasons I hate PhotoBucket sites, no one is going to post any of these common players/inserts/parallels/SPs/oddball.

 

[timfsu2k]

Nice thread. I agree with you Ed that most of today's younger collectors won't give it a second look if it didn't come from a $150 pack or if it doesn't have some "sick" quality to it. Look at my #1 want...it's Chris Weinke. One of my biggest collecting thrills in years came a couple of months ago when I was digging through the dollar bin at my local card shop and came across a BGS 8.5 Chris Weinke UD Graded jersey.

To be fair, I also collect Nolan Ryan and Peyton Manning, two guys whom no one would call commons. But, give me a $2 Manning base card or a $5 Ryan insert that I need from the 90s and I'm golden. My biggest question is where do this 12-14 year old kids get the $ to buy all this high-end stuff?

As to your comment about the player collector base shrinking, I think it might just be that the well has run dry of their players as far as the older members here are concerned. I would say that a lot of the newer members are of the younger variety and wouldn't keep a Joey Cora (or Chris Weinke) card should they happen across one - and if they did, you had better bust out your sickest Jeter 8 color patch/auto 1/1 printing plate.