PC Help...GU cards really used by that player on the card? Or just chopped up bats?

[timfsu2k]

Topps had to make a public statement about this concerning 2009 Tribute. Some of the cards people thought were dual bat cards actually featured a piece of bat and a piece of stadium bench.

I agree the wording is getting more vague by the minute. Basically it's to the point where the only thing you are sure of is that the piece of cardboard you are holding has a picture of the player named on the front. Anything other than that, there's no way to tell 100%.

 

[porkchops]

I remember a Bench interview with someone
from UpperDeck and this question was asked.
If someone wants to locate and link it,might
add to this topic.
I agree that with the competion(that there once was)
between the companies,someone would have come
forward if there was something/anything questionable
or missleading going on.
Ken

 

[mightydon]

I wrote to Topps and asked them what the deal is with their vague choice of words. Surprisingly, they got back to me. Here is the correspondence:

I have been collecting for many years and have noticed lately that the game used cards with pieces of wood inserted into packs often no longer say "game used bat". Now Topps is using terms like "game used relic" and "game used memorabilia". Can you please clarify where these pieces of wood come from when the cards states "game used relic" and "game used memorabilia". Is Topps using wood from a railing or bench in the clubhouse or handles from the rakes of the groundskeepers? I can not think of anything else that is made of wood and that is used in a baseball game that is not a bat. So why the disclaimer?

Another question: If I pull an Albert Pujols Triple Threads bat card and it indeed says "this bat was using in an official MLB game" does that mean it was Albert Pujols' bat? Or could it have been a bat purchased on the secondary market and used by Cardinal's catcher Tom Nieto in the mid 1980s?

I hope to hear from you very soon with answers.

Thanks,
Don

*collector for 20 years*

AND TOPPS REPLY:
Don,

The term "relic" is being used for any game used memorabilia. If it was wood it still is most likely a bat, it is just considered a "relic". As far as your second question goes, if a player card has a "game used bat" relic on it, it was used by that specific player in a game.

Regards,

Topps CST

 

[BoomerSooner]

I lost all faith in game used stuff last year from those ridiculous Topps "manufactured bat barrels". It looks like a big piece of bat barrel- with wood grain and a screen printed facsimile signature on it, and when you pull it from the pack you are happy as a kid on Christmas morning, then you read the back:"Embedded in this card is a manufactured bat barrel reminiscent of the bat used by Mike Pizza of the New york Mets". In smaller print:"This replica bat barrel was manufactured specifically for 2010 Topps Updates Series." Then right under that is says:" Topps pledges to bring you closer to the game".
How? With a PLASTIC piece of fake bat?

 

[DaClyde]

I'm hoping for a hobby-wide loss of interest in GU cards, so the prices will all tank and I can catch up on my Winfield collection.

 

[scottzoe]

I'm hoping for a hobby-wide loss of interest in GU cards, so the prices will all tank and I can catch up on my Winfield collection.

I think for the most part, that day is here. I had refused to buy jersey and bat cards when they were new and hot. Now they can be had for $1 or 2 and I have added a ton to my collection in the last few years. Regardless of whether they were really used in a game or not, for $1 a piece, I have yet turn down a Red Sox "memorabilia" card.

Scott

 

[redbird4]

I think for the most part, that day is here. I had refused to buy jersey and bat cards when they were new and hot. Now they can be had for $1 or 2 and I have added a ton to my collection in the last few years. Regardless of whether they were really used in a game or not, for $1 a piece, I have yet turn down a Red Sox "memorabilia" card.

Scott

Well said.

 

[valediction]

"Case in point, 2009 Topps Triple Threads #TTR-79 Whitey Ford /36 "This is an authentic game used relic card of Whitey Ford from 2009 Topps Triple Threads Baseball. The relics contained on this card are not from any specific game, event, or season". WTH does that mean? "


All that statement says is that you are holding a Whitey Ford baseball card.

If you remove the adjectives from that first sentence, you have "This is a card of Whitey Ford", which is true, Whitey Ford is on the card. It doesn't say he wore the piece you're holding. Someone did, maybe, but you'll never know who, and like people have said before, event can mean anything. The event could have been that 3 second wearing of the jersey for the UD rep...

Unless it specifically says it was worn by whoever, I'd guess it wasn't.

What I'd like to see next in the game used market is a specific date/game that it was used. Put a unique code on the back and provide a web site where you can input the code to see stats about the game, and maybe some video clips of the player in question. I definitely want specific dates the game was played on, and it would be even better if the photo was from that same game. I'm confident we'll get there, I just hope it's soon.

I'm not sure we'll get there, just the logistics in tracking things like that could be crazy. Just for the current players it would be tough. You play a 4 game series in Texas in mid August, I'd be switching jerseys every chance I got just to keep a little cooler and drier. Trying to verify the August 13 from the August 14th from the 15th might get just a little crazy when I've got 3 or 4 from each day and nothing particularly noteworthy happened on any given day. 1-4 with your 26th HR one day, 2-3 with 2 RBI the day before, 0-3 with a BB and Run scored to close the series. Unless your agreement is to collect the jerseys every day, counting on the teams or the players to keep track of what jersey is from what day is setting yourself up for failure. I'm guessing it'd be very low priority on a team employees list of assigned duties, and even lower for the player. Then you get into the retired players. How do you document which exact jersey was used in a game 32 years ago unless it's a gimmick uniform (Phillies St Patrick Day, etc)? Might be able to pin a Frank Robinson Reds jersey to 1964 from laundry tags, labelling, etc, but pinning it down to an exact game or even series would be as much educated guesswork as anything

 

[BoomerSooner]

MLB has a representative at every game, one for each team, whose only jobs are to collect, verify and catalog memorabilia from that game. From jerseys, game balls, bats, bases, hats, etc, they collect it all. So keeping it straight is a job already being done.

 

[David K.]

I normally only go after auto, insert or base cards. Only take the gu if it comes with an auto. Best regards, David

 

[valediction]

MLB has a representative at every game, one for each team, whose only jobs are to collect, verify and catalog memorabilia from that game. From jerseys, game balls, bats, bases, hats, etc, they collect it all. So keeping it straight is a job already being done.

So they have a record of every bat in use during every game? How many games each bat was used before being disposed of?

Which of the 4 gloves owned by Alfonso Soriano was used which day, if he made an error one day, switched gloves the next, but didn't like the feel of it and switched back the next day while keeping them the whole time until it wore out 2 years later? When Trent Oeltjen came in the game in the top of the 8th during Kershaws 20th win and makes one catch, doesn't get the uniform dirty, and tosses it in the laundry bin and gets it back a day or two later, they can tell which jersey he was wearing for those 2 innings?


If Michael Cuddyer cracks his last bat in the 8th and grabs one of Denard Span's to finish the at bat, and Span uses the same bat for the next week and a half, that is all recorded? Hats off to MLB, sounds like a pretty good program!

 

[DaClyde]

The MLB reps are there to authenticate anything being made available for sale, they're not logging the actual per-instance use of the items. Just that, yes, THIS particular item came from Denard Span. This was actually Jim Thome's 600th home run ball.

They're tracking that the items are legitimate MLB player used items. That is not to say what the card companies are using are actually these items, just that the items being provided/released/sold/donated by MLB are genuine. Two completely separate issues there.

 

[gracecollector]

Donruss used to do it right... put a picture of the actual item the swatch of material comes from, and identify the year it was used. Donruss made some great GU cards in the 2001-2004 era. One example:




I love GU when it can be identified to the original item. I've stopped buying virtually all GU cards issued after 2005, but love picking up cards like this.

 

[BoomerSooner]

The Major League Baseball Authentication Program is the first league-wide memorabilia authentication initiative in professional sports. Since its launch in 2001, it has become the industry standard for autographed and game-used sports memorabilia authentication.

Designed to distinguish officially authenticated MLB memorabilia from other items on the market, the program combines an objective third-party authentication system that guarantees genuine memorabilia for all MLB fans.

Major League Baseball uses a third party authenticator at each and every game, who witnesses all items that received a signature or that were removed from the field. Every item, once witnessed, will receive a sequentially numbered, tamper-proof hologram created by OpSec, U.S. to easily identify its Major League Baseball authenticity.

Once fans receive the piece of memorabilia, they can trace their item using the new, rectangular official authentication numbered hologram through MLB.com. This easy reference enables fans to easily obtain and verify all of the details surrounding their new item.

Since its inception in 2001, Major League Baseball Authentication Program has certified over 3,000,000 items, allowing fans to ensure their memorabilia is a 100% genuine piece of their favorite pastime. It's easy to get the real goods - just check for the official seal of authentication.

Once witnessed, every authenticated item is affixed with a tamper-proof hologram created by OpSec, U.S. to identify its authenticity.

Valediction, I understand your thinking, but in all honesty, who would care? Unless it is a historical event, which the agents would surely recognize and collect/label items, why would we need to know how many times a bat was used by anyone? And if the reps collected & labeled the item, then put it on the market, isn't that all you need to know? It was used in a MLB game. My point was that since each item collected by MLB is assigned a hologram number, it would be easy for the card companies to provide that holo# on a the card back for proof of authenticity.

 

[mikefri]

heres the thing that would concern me the most with jerseys etc .most ball players are supersticous(sorry for the spelling lol) so would make me wonder why they would jinx themselves by always getting a new 1.

 

[valediction]

The Major League Baseball Authentication Program is the first league-wide memorabilia authentication initiative in professional sports. Since its launch in 2001, it has become the industry standard for autographed and game-used sports memorabilia authentication.

Designed to distinguish officially authenticated MLB memorabilia from other items on the market, the program combines an objective third-party authentication system that guarantees genuine memorabilia for all MLB fans.

Major League Baseball uses a third party authenticator at each and every game, who witnesses all items that received a signature or that were removed from the field. Every item, once witnessed, will receive a sequentially numbered, tamper-proof hologram created by OpSec, U.S. to easily identify its Major League Baseball authenticity.

Once fans receive the piece of memorabilia, they can trace their item using the new, rectangular official authentication numbered hologram through MLB.com. This easy reference enables fans to easily obtain and verify all of the details surrounding their new item.

Since its inception in 2001, Major League Baseball Authentication Program has certified over 3,000,000 items, allowing fans to ensure their memorabilia is a 100% genuine piece of their favorite pastime. It's easy to get the real goods - just check for the official seal of authentication.

Once witnessed, every authenticated item is affixed with a tamper-proof hologram created by OpSec, U.S. to identify its authenticity.

Valediction, I understand your thinking, but in all honesty, who would care? Unless it is a historical event, which the agents would surely recognize and collect/label items, why would we need to know how many times a bat was used by anyone? And if the reps collected & labeled the item, then put it on the market, isn't that all you need to know? It was used in a MLB game. My point was that since each item collected by MLB is assigned a hologram number, it would be easy for the card companies to provide that holo# on a the card back for proof of authenticity.

What would that prove though? That (insert card company here) bought an item with a hologram # at some point. You can reuse the hologram number countless times.

Read the bolded portion of the post I quoted in my first reply, they were talking about wanting a way to track what specific game the jersey/bat swatch was from, my point is that THAT would be almost impossible to do even with todays relics, unless it is brand new before the game and taken out of circulation after that game. Stuff is used through multiple games.

 

[valediction]

Donruss used to do it right... put a picture of the actual item the swatch of material comes from, and identify the year it was used. Donruss made some great GU cards in the 2001-2004 era. One example:




I love GU when it can be identified to the original item. I've stopped buying virtually all GU cards issued after 2005, but love picking up cards like this.

What proof is that though? It's about as comforting as Kwik Trips gas guarantee "we'll pay for the repairs if our gas causes a problem". Of course they will, the only way to prove the problem was caused by their gas is if multiple people using that station have the same problem. If one fuel pump goes out, how do you prove it was THAT tank of gas and not the one you bought at Speedway/SA last week that did the damage? GU is the same way, buy an old Musial jersey at an auction, take a couple different pictures, and slap it on any old flannel from that era that matches the color and you've got a huge supply of 'documented' Musial jerseys

 

[BoomerSooner]

valediction, you're looking for absolute proof in something that can never be absolute. The MLB hologram # on an item is as close to permament, absolute proof you can get, IMO. You can't use the hologram number again- it's registered in the MLB database to that particular item, with a clear description of the item- what it is, markings, where it was collected, date, time, etc. And that is exactly what you are saying can't be done- tracking an item specifically. Doesn't matter if it's new before the game- if it is collected by MLB after the game or during it, it is registered with that info, proving for all-time it was used in that specific game. If the player doesn't want to give up an item, then it isn't memorabilia we would be discussing on cards, is it?
Todays items are way easier to track than anything pre-2001.
As to cards, putting the holo number of the item they purchased from MLB, then cut up into swatches for use on insert cards, onto the card back would be a reliable form of authenticity. At the very least, you would know that the item material on the card front came from a MLB collected & registered item, instead of something they bought on the secondary market with no proof at all.

 

[mikefri]

either way it really doesnt matter as the value of these cards continues to dive soon the argument will be pointless anyways

 

[valediction]

valediction, you're looking for absolute proof in something that can never be absolute. The MLB hologram # on an item is as close to permament, absolute proof you can get, IMO. You can't use the hologram number again- it's registered in the MLB database to that particular item, with a clear description of the item- what it is, markings, where it was collected, date, time, etc. And that is exactly what you are saying can't be done- tracking an item specifically. Doesn't matter if it's new before the game- if it is collected by MLB after the game or during it, it is registered with that info, proving for all-time it was used in that specific game. If the player doesn't want to give up an item, then it isn't memorabilia we would be discussing on cards, is it?
Todays items are way easier to track than anything pre-2001.
As to cards, putting the holo number of the item they purchased from MLB, then cut up into swatches for use on insert cards, onto the card back would be a reliable form of authenticity. At the very least, you would know that the item material on the card front came from a MLB collected & registered item, instead of something they bought on the secondary market with no proof at all.

That's ALL I'm saying, is it can NOT be absolute. The first post I quoted said we were close to being able to document which game the jersey swatch on the front of the card was from. I said we were not that close. All the MLB hologram does is tell us MLB sold Topps a 2005 Albert Pujols white polyester jersey collected on August 19th 2005, it does NOT tell me the white polyester swatch on the front of my card is from that uniform. Topps tells me that, and there is no way to prove it true, only false. They could accidentally grab swatches from the AR bag instead of the AP bag and I will never know the jersey on the front of my card is Anthony Reyes' from a June 2005 game Pujols never played in instead of Alberts from the August 2005 game he went 2-3 with a HR and all 3 RBI in a 3-1 Cards win the hologram tells me it is. As for reusing the hologram, I think we are talking different definitions. I'm not talking about the hologram itself, I'm saying they could put that hologram # on any number of cards saying it is a Pujols jersey card, and as long as it's a white polyester jersey, there really isn't any way to prove it beyond taking their word. Is MLB light years ahead of where they were prior to 2001, undoubtedly. Can they prove to me the swatch on the front of my card is absolutely from the jersey and game it claims to be? No, they can prove the jersey they sold to Topps was the jersey used in that game. There was a time a COA certifying this was from the Barry Halper collection added a premium to an items value instead of bringing a request for a second and third opinion.