Spring Training Contest! **WINNER IS T.ROOSTER**

[SymphonicMetal]

47 for today's selection. Thanks!

Talk about perception, to this day when I come across a Frank Thomas card I consider it a "big deal" (relatively speaking). And then I realize he is an unlisted star in Beckett's. But the Griffey vs Thomas debate was quite the rage in the 1990s especially amongst card collectors.

A lot of the stat geeks were coming up with stats to compare Thomas to all time greats like Ted Williams. You'd constantly read that "not since Ted Williams" has anyone had X number of home runs, Y number of RBI, Z number of walks while batting (put in random avg. here) over a certain amount of seasons and on and on.. No doubt Thomas put together some amazing years but the stats guys were combining a bunch of factors to come up with the "Not since" statements. You hear stuff like this now on NFL and NBA telecasts as well.

 

[Jaybo374]

I'll go with 99 today.

I may be in the minority here but the DH is a position on all A.L. rosters. As a lifelong Red Sox fan growing up in the 80s, I only knew the game with the DH. The few times I would see a N.L. hosted game, watching the pitcher looked painfully awkward that it looked almost unnatural.

As for his argument for being enshrined, compare him to Frank Thomas.

Thomas played 1308 of his 2276 (57%) career starts at DH (521 HR .974 OPS)
Thome played 1561 of his 2374 (66%) career starts at 1B/3B (612 HR, .956 OPS)

That is an interesting comparison to Thomas. I had no idea that Thomas had played that many games at DH. I think there are a few things that favor Thomas over Thome though. He has a lifetime .300+ batting average which is a big benchmark. The two MVPs also are a big plus. He also had a 5 or 6 year run hitting where the experts were comparing him to Ted Williams.

The biggest plus for Thomas is perception. For a bunch of years in the 1990s it was a debate on who was the best between Griffey and Thomas......at least in the card collecting world. For several years Thomas was the most sought after card in the hobby. He was considered an all time great by many after only a handful of big years. Obviously this praise was just a tad over the top but as they say "perception is reality" and Thomas has always been considered a sure shot HOFer by most.

I know who is popular in the card collecting hobby is not an accurate baramoter of anyone's greatness or talent but it is fun to look back as to what players were the hot card in any given year. (Sam Horn 1988)

If Wikipedia is accurate, I find it shocking that Frank Thomas made the All Star team from 1993-1997 and never made it again! That is a shocker to me, if true.

I'll go,with 10 today.

Amazingly, Thomas (baseballreference.com) was only a five time all-star as was Thome.

Thomas had a career OBP of .419 and a career slugging percentage of .555. Thome? OBP .402 and slugging .554. Granted, Thome played three more years than Thomas but the last two he was essentially a pinch hitter ultimately contributing very little to his career numbers.

Sure, Thomas had a significantly higher BA than Thome (.301 vs .276), but I always thought that OBP is a more telling stat than batting average. This is because if baseball is considered a game of failure, in that hitters always accumulate more negative results than positive, shouldn't getting on base no matter by what method be celebrated? If so, batting average doesn't paint the entire picture the way OBP does.

Additionally, Thome had nine seasons of 35+ HRs. Thomas? Eight. As Jeff said, Thomas benefited from the hype of his early years and winning back to back MVPs certainly helped as well. Thome never ranked higher than fourth in the MVP voting and for large parts of his career was overshadowed by teammates such as Albert Belle and Manny Ramirez, never really receiving the publicity that he deserved.

I honestly do not know why I am stumping for him; I was never a fan of Thome. It's not like I disliked him, but like other fans at the time, I overlooked him. It's only when looking at what he accomplished in hindsight, I truly appreciate what he did accomplish.

Based on both of their career statistics, both are worthy of first year enshrinement.

 

[grapler135s]

I will take #12 today thanks!

Pretty cool Thome and Thomas analysis. I think Thome is in...maybe first ballot by the skin of his teeth...for sure second ballot. And I agree with Griffey that Edgar should be in there too...he could rake! Time will tell how many DHs get in!

 

[jlackey40]

58 for today.

Thanks,
Janice

 

[Camsue]

65 for today thank you

 

[mm1sub]

I will try #69

 

[gwynn_fan]

Hi
Sandy Koufax 32

 

[anglinomics]

I'll go with 46. Thanks.

 

[katester44]

I will take #12 today thanks!

Pretty cool Thome and Thomas analysis. I think Thome is in...maybe first ballot by the skin of his teeth...for sure second ballot. And I agree with Griffey that Edgar should be in there too...he could rake! Time will tell how many DHs get in!

The guess today, in honor of the esteemed Mr. Thome - #25.

Reading all the analysis, the stats, etc., I think if Thome gets in on the first ballot, just close the doors to the HOF or give ballots to people who know what they are doing. If Thome truly made 5 all star teams in 18 years - how is that first ballot worthy??? I don't care about 612 HR's, especially during the steroid/juiced ball eras. Somebody brought up that he had a higher OBP because of his walks..I actually believe that to be a failing of a power hitter. If you are hitting cleanup and you have a runner on 1st base with two outs, you should be swinging with power to hit a double or HR, not looking to take a walk.

First ballot is reserved for GREAT players, not marginal HOF'rs that you need to debate about. And if you need to be on the ballot for 10 years while the stat geeks decide whether your WAR of 3.2 is worthy, you shouldn't be in. I never once said to my friends, man, we gotta make that drive down to Camden Yards to catch the Tribe series, can't miss seeing Jim Thome before he is gone. But I did drive to Philly to see Bonds play. I did go to Camden Yards to watch Ichiro and Jeter and A-Rod and Griffey, Jr. play. And I will probably take my son down there this year to catch Pujols and Trout play.

I am probably contradictory to most in terms of HOF selection, but you just can't let everyone in.

 

[KCLJ520]

Numbers taken: 1, 4, 8, 10, 12, 13, 17, 19, 21, 25, 26, 27, 29, 32, 37, 39, 41, 44, 45, 46, 47, 49, 52, 53, 58, 62, 65, 68, 69, 72, 75, 77, 83, 88, 92, 93, 95, 100.

I can't say how much I have enjoyed the discussion, and never saw the Thome/Thomas parallels in terms of their numbers. Katester, I laughed out loud about your last post in regards to talking to your friends about driving to Camden Yards, and I do hope your son and you get to make the trip this year, I saw Pujols many times in STL, and he is a true great of the game. Trout is fantastic too. Also what you said about being on the ballot for a long time before the statisticians decide if you are worthy (see Smith, Lee!) is interesting as well. I think some players may be seen differently in the future, history is kinder to some than others, but I agree, many who were on the ballot forever and didn't make it may never (Veteran's Committee), based on that. I know Don Mattingly was another great of the era without a World Series win who dropped off the ballot recently, much to many Yankee fans' chagrin.

Jeff, what you said about popularity in the card collecting world interested me as well, because you are so right! I remember how hot Thomas cards were in the 90s, I had his first Sox card in his Auburn uniform, and I thought I would have funded my retirement!! Popularity among collectors is a unique thing, no doubt. Griffey has been the hottest for many years, and his numbers were definitely ahead of Thome or Thomas, though interestingly, none ever won a World Series (Thomas was injured and was not on the post-season roster when the White Sox won the World Series in 2005. He did receive a ring though for his team contributions.) All three men had very excellent contributions, and when I saw that Jim Thome had hit 612 home runs, I was amazed, he did that very quietly over many seasons!

 

[grapler135s]

I agree...great and fun discussion. I will choose #85 today. Thank you!

 

[Jaybo374]

I'll take 99 today.

I have to admit as I get older, card collecting is still a thrill, but friendly discussions really liven up the boards.

I'd like to add a different angle to this ongoing discussion. Let's talk about perception of Hall of Fame worthiness. As kids players, especially star players, really took on an almost god-like persona to many of us. For me it was the legendary Carl Yastrzemski, the in-his-prime Jim Rice and young kid-making-waves Wade Boggs. Here we were not adults and truly in awe of what we saw these guys do. We looked up to them. In our eyes, these guys were legendary in our times so of course they were worthy of enshrinement (For me, it pained me to see Jim Rice, a truly feared hitter in his prime, take forever to get enshrined).

As we matured and these players were essentially peers in terms of age (certainly not ability). We definitely appreciated their abilities accomplishments but they certainly did not seem as superhuman as players with similar or even lesser abilities did in our youth.

Now the players are young enough to be our kid brothers, or worse, our sons. For them, many of us just write them off by saying, "sure he's good but he's no (fill in your childhood idol)" or "Man, so and so could play, these guys - meh." Part of this may have to do with the transient nature to the game today due to the economics involved. However, I believe too many of us (myself included) are just turning into grumpy, jaded old men who are having trouble accepting this new breed of player as well as the decline of the hobby that has been so near and dear to us for most of our lives.

For most of us, the answer to the question "Who deserves to enshrined in Cooperstown?" is rooted somewhere between our perception of the player as he was playing as well as the statistics he accumulated throughout his career. Should be this subjective? I don't know. For example, while I detest WAR an modern and arbitrary statistics, I have trouble validating the emphasis that many of us still place on Wins, RBIs and batting average. I like to look at OBP, slugging percentage and runs created. I also give a nod to counting stats such as home runs (let's be honest is there anything as awe-inspiring or majestic in sports as seeing someone swat the game ball off the playing field and have it matter as much?) and ERA.

All in all it's these debates that we have which make this the greatest game.

 

[David K.]

I'll go with Frank Thomas number 35! Best regards, David

 

[SymphonicMetal]

I'll go with 63 today.

Kevin you won't believe this but back in 1993 or 1994 when the Frank Thomas craze was in full swing, someone in my small town bought a Stadium Club First Day Issue of Frank Thomas for something like $500. It was absolutely mind blowing. But back then the Frank Thomas is "the new Ted Williams" was pretty much widely accepted in collecting circles.

I'm also surprised to see that his OBP was not all that high. One of the comparisons to Williams was Thomas having such a good eye and being so selective so he got good pitches to hit or walked. Without looking at his career stats it appears that he had 5 fabulous years and then became some what of a stat compiler from then on out. I knew he was not a prolific home run hitter despite his size as he was more of a line drive hitter like Dave Winfield.

 

[t.rooster]

3 please.....

 

[SymphonicMetal]

Jay I don't think you are old enough to remember this but at one time Fred Lynn's RC was much more sought after than Jim Rice's was. It was always "Lynn and Rice" with Lynn actually getting top billing. Time sure changed that perception.

I do agree that our perceptions of our childhood heroes being larger than life is true but the world was a much bigger place back then and we really did not have as many options for entertainment as today's kids do. A big part of our lives was spent following our heroes through the rare televised game, the radio broadcasts, the box scores in the paper, the Sunday League leaders, baseball cards, and if you were really lucky, a subscription to The Sporting News or Baseball Digest.

I've never thought that yesterday's players were superior to today's at least in terms of athleticism, quite the opposite in fact. But the actual games/sports have changed so much that they are almost unwatchable. So for me the "bitter old man" part has to do with the actual changes in the games. In the old days things were more gritty and hardcore. Now things seem to be more sterile despite all the glitz and glamor. And I think a large part of the changes in the various sports were to expand the fan base by appealing to more than just your traditional sports fans like me.

 

[Jaybo374]

I'll go with 63 today.

Kevin you won't believe this but back in 1993 or 1994 when the Frank Thomas craze was in full swing, someone in my small town bought a Stadium Club First Day Issue of Frank Thomas for something like $500. It was absolutely mind blowing. But back then the Frank Thomas is "the new Ted Williams" was pretty much widely accepted in collecting circles.

I'm also surprised to see that his OBP was not all that high. One of the comparisons to Williams was Thomas having such a good eye and being so selective so he got good pitches to hit or walked. Without looking at his career stats it appears that he had 5 fabulous years and then became some what of a stat compiler from then on out. I knew he was not a prolific home run hitter despite his size as he was more of a line drive hitter like Dave Winfield.

Crazy amount of money...

Thomas's career OBP is 20th all-time. Thome's is 50th. Other surprises include Lance Berkman 42nd, Jeff Bagwell 39th, Todd Helton 26th and Joey Votto 12th!!!

 

[SymphonicMetal]

I just looked at Thomas's OBP for the years through 1997 and it was really high. It looks lie he went downhill statistically in most categories starting in 1998 although he came in 2nd and 4th in the MVP voting in two seasons after that (2000 and 2006 I believe).

 

[jlackey40]

38 today.

Thanks,
Janice

 

[KCLJ520]

Numbers taken: 1, 3, 4, 8, 10, 12, 13, 17, 19, 21, 25, 26, 27, 29, 32, 35, 37, 38, 39, 41, 44, 45, 46, 47, 49, 52, 53, 58, 62, 63, 65, 68, 69, 72, 75, 77, 83, 85, 88, 92, 93, 95, 99, 100.

Just phenomenal discussion guys, love every post!! I wholeheartedly agree Jay and Jeff, our childhood heroes are who made this hobby so much fun, and continues to make it fun as adults. The memories are truly enjoyable, and I agree, baseball is the greatest game ever! I never matched the feeling of my first baseball game in August of 1988 with my beloved Grandparents, until my wife and I went to our first game together, and then later took our children! The next generation getting to enjoy what we enjoyed as kids, now THAT is a memory worth keeping!

God Bless,

Kevin