An etiquette question

[tennisjunky]

Hello all, what is the best way to handle someone who overvalues cards that aren't listed in Beckett? On the occasion that this happens, when I suggest that the cards aren't quite worth what the other person percieves, I get a reposnse like I just shot their dog or something. Is it better to just avoid the conversation all together? Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[AUTaxMan]

I would also like thoughts about people who think beckett determines the value of cards for trading purposes.

 

[JamesNevans]

That's tough because people are entitled to value cards in whatever way works for them, but the prescribed method many want to use is BV. I draw the line when people misrepresent BV (or SV) as a way to overinflate the perception of value for OTHER people, but if someone doesn't want to get rid of their oddball card some guide says is worth pennies for less than dollars worth of other stuff they have a valid objection, just as you do to say you can't part with excess BV.

 

[worldwideed]

Just say "the lowest I can do it deal at is $xx", be sure to give an honest number. If they come back with a "no way" or "your trying to rip me off", just walk away with NO OTHER communication. I'm used this approach a few times and often, after a cooling off period, the person realized that they were perhaps being unrealistic and restarts negotiations. Then you go back to that same number from before saying that it is really the most you can do.

 

[tennisjunky]

I always go with Beckett when a price is listed but when the numbering is so low that beckett doesn't price it, then it is left up to the individual. Sometimes a person will assume that since a card is numbered to 5 for instance that is must be worth hundreds of dollars, irrelevant of other factors. I guess walking away is probably the best policy.

 

[JamesNevans]

I always go with Beckett when a price is listed but when the numbering is so low that beckett doesn't price it, then it is left up to the individual. Sometimes a person will assume that since a card is numbered to 5 for instance that is must be worth hundreds of dollars, irrelevant of other factors. I guess walking away is probably the best policy.

Sometimes you can educate them if data can be extrapolated. Let's say that Beckett lists many tiers of the card in question to 5 and you know the value of #/100, #/50, #/25, and no value listed for the #/10 or #/5. Perhaps the first tier listed is $8 BV, the second at $12, the third at $15, doesn't it make sense that a #/10 might be $20 and then the #/5 would be $25? Even if you gave some leeway and said a #/10 was $25 then #/5 at $40 it makes a far cry from hundreds of dollars of value.

 

[tennisjunky]

Sometimes you can educate them if data can be extrapolated. Let's say that Beckett lists many tiers of the card in question to 5 and you know the value of #/100, #/50, #/25, and no value listed for the #/10 or #/5. Perhaps the first tier listed is $8 BV, the second at $12, the third at $15, doesn't it make sense that a #/10 might be $20 and then the #/5 would be $25? Even if you gave some leeway and said a #/10 was $25 then #/5 at $40 it makes a far cry from hundreds of dollars of value.

Agreed. That is the very thing that is met with resistance. I guess people see a really low number and just assume they have hit gold.

 

[Tim Carroll]

I know what I'm about to say has been covered, but sometimes "BV" is not anywhere in the ballpark of what a card is worth. One example is the 2003 Topps Gallery HOF ARTifacts Relics. Some of the tougher ones (Heilmann, Roush, Manush, etc.) only book at $40 each. Roush has sold consistantly - recently - for over $200. In that type of instance, or an instance where someone was wanting, say, David Freese stuff right after Game 6 - logic should prevail and BV should be thrown out the window.

However, if there aren't any special circumstances (ie. 95% of the time), it is within your reason to expect to use a price guide to "guide" your trade. If the other trader can't accept that, it is within their right......but it is within yours to simply walk away.


Tim

 

[jwj20]

So BV is determined in a funny manner. I've spent a considerable amount of time figuring this out on my own and talking to a buddy that helps do pricing for them.

They use a window timeframe for collection. Say, a 72 hour period in a given week. They monitor auction web site sales, hobby shop sales, sales recorded on their sites and card show sales. If cards pop in during this time, they take the sale values and generate a high to low. Currently e-Bay is the major driving force behind these sales figures. These will be typically low values. However, there must be at least 10 sales within this window.

The reason is an averaging filter is applied that essentially determines the lowest 10% of sales and the 10% highest sales. This is what gives the low to high. Now card show sales and other form of in person monitoring is easy. For e-Bay and online sites, they charge fees, taxes and shipping. These are included in the BV. So a card you see that books 3BV really means it is worth 1 with 2.00 postage.

Now if a card has fallen off the radar, there may not be enough new sales that will change its value. One example is the 2007 A-Rod Road to 500 cards from Opening Day. They lasted at 3.00 a pop for about 3 months before storming to 15.00 and then eventually 36.00. The books always lagged behind the market. Good thing is that roughly 75,000 of each were produced so about 10-15 were selling a week. Good luck finding anyone to pay 36.00 for one now.

A reverse example is the 2001 Topps Traded last card. It books at 4.00 and is nothing significant. It was a player who was hot at the time and now is barely sold. That card jumped up to 10.00 BV, fell back to about 4.00 and has sat since. Not enough reported sales within the window to drive it to a more appropriate price.

I guess the big thing is that a lot of these values include shipping prices in them. I will typically try to let a seller know they are charging twice for shipping if they are trying to get a BV + shipping for a card. In the end? Those 8 dollar autos are really 5 bucks. That lot of 50 cards from series I that are 60 BV when the entire set is 60 BV is because you are adding the average of shipping and in store sales (would usually come out to be about 10-15 cents a card).

 

[BoomerSooner]

Shipping fees are part of beckett price values? Cite your source, please.

quote:"Now card show sales and other form of in person monitoring is easy."
How is that easy? No one at any of the shows I go to is reporting anything to anyone, especially the tax man.

 

[jwj20]

I don't know where you got your facts, but shipping fees are not part of beckett price values. Cite your source, please.

quote:"Now card show sales and other form of in person monitoring is easy."
How is that easy? No one at any of the shows I go to is reporting anything to anyone, especially the tax man.

citation: the Beckett site itself informing in an abbreviated way of what I mentioned above.

http://www.beckett.com/estore/helpsys/viewarticle.aspx?ArticleId=319

Here's a quote off the Beckett website.

"Also, please note, when we track eBay (or any other online source where the cost of shipping and handling is a factor) we add the mailing cost into the total purchase price when determining the sale. Thus, many of those ninety-nine cent eBay sales are actually calculated into our market data as $3, or even $5, transactions."

 

[dgrimes248]

Can't see where shipping would be part of the card's value. some dealers will include shipping and others can charge as much as $4 to ship one card.

 

[JamesNevans]

Can't see where shipping would be part of the card's value. some dealers will include shipping and others can charge as much as $4 to ship one card.

I think the thought is the realized cost. If someone was buying one $0.99 card with $2 shipping he is really paying/valuing the card as a $3 purchase.

 

[jwj20]

I think the thought is the realized cost. If someone was buying one $0.99 card with $2 shipping he is really paying/valuing the card as a $3 purchase.

That's right.

The bigger problem to the collector is that we do not know how much shipping is included in the BV. For example, many base cards are standard "common" card. Only about 1-2% of the shipping may be in the 15 cent cost. But for a 1.50 insert. Who knows if it is 25% of shipping or more. Where are inserts sold the most... E-Bay, card shops, card shows?

This has to go into the etiquette because not many people realize this. So I do exactly as Tim says above. Give a limit of what you're willing to do. If you're not happy, walk away. Don't have to argue.

 

[valediction]

Hello all, what is the best way to handle someone who overvalues cards that aren't listed in Beckett? On the occasion that this happens, when I suggest that the cards aren't quite worth what the other person percieves, I get a reposnse like I just shot their dog or something. Is it better to just avoid the conversation all together? Any thoughts are appreciated.

People tend to overvalue their cards. Especially in cases like no BV. If they do, I just politely tell then that's more than it is worth to me and walk away. If pressed for a why, I'll explain my reasoning.

 

[Tim Carroll]

Not meaning to turn this thread into a S&H issue, but I have over 1,900 transactions on ebay. I have NEVER paid a single dime for shipping and handling. Huh? How is that possible? I set the price of what I am willing to pay for the card. If I am willing to pay $6 for the card and the seller wants $2 for S&H, I put my bid in at $4. If I win, I know I have given no more than what I was willing to pay for the card. I never have to worry about being overcharged for S&H, and I sometimes even get a deal because other buyers walk away from the "$5-to-ship-one-card" sellers.

So, absolutely.....whether or not Beckett decided to use S&H prices in their price figures........S&H prices certainly factor into the value of the card.



Tim

Tim

 

[BoomerSooner]

The very idea of including shipping fees in the value of a card is so absurd.

Example: two of the exact same card are sold on Ebay, one for $1 with free shipping, the other for $1 with $2 shipping. Beckett then determines that card has at least a $1.50 value, correct? But both were sold for $1, which should be the exact price. What if card #2 was sold for $1 but the seller only shipped overnight express, for a total of $8? Then that card might be $4.50 Beckett. Of course they use more data than that, but you see my point. What does shipping have to do with card value?

 

[jwj20]

.

 

[BoomerSooner]

-

 

[Meliah]

People need to settle down and stop being so sensitive during a discussion. Play nice or I will just shut this thread down.