The art of trading. Is it lost with the value based system assigned to cards now?

[mrmopar]

I was reading through threads and came across one that discussed the desire to improve trading on the site. This is not a new subject and one that probably gets discussed multiple times per year, if not more frequently. Rather than post on that thread, since it was actually a trade thread, I thought I would start one of my own and share an observation. Feel free to share your thoughts or comments, however this is just an opinion, so I am not looking to be proven wrong in my observation. This is just what I see.

Trading cards have had values assigned to them for many, many years. Probably before most of us started collecting. For years, the values were mainly tied to set building and created by those collectors looking to complete those sets. If a card was hard to find, it was designated a short print (SP) and thus the value may have been higher due to the difficulty in finding it. Based on some very early cataloged values I have seen, I assume it was not uncommon to see Mickey Mantle being trading for a common SP, because Mantle was worth no more than Kaline, Snider, Mays or any common player. He was just one of many cards in a set.

Of course this changed over time. Set builders wanted/needed every card, but what about guys who didn't care about sets? I don't need a Dick Sisler or Phil Regan card, I only want star players who I like and idolize or perhaps the hometown team only. Soon, stars and rookies became much more desirable than the average common cards, even though your chances of finding one in a pack were no different than finding a common, other than those occasional SPs. Anyone who has tried to complete a set has probably felt the frustration of not being able to find that last card for what seems like an eternity. I could not find a damn 1981 Topps Cullen Bryant card to complete my 81 Topps FB set, for example! Now today, we buy and trade within a world of high value, artificially short printed cards and the theory of set building is still around, but often financially impossible. Trading has changed.

This is my observation for online trading in general and this applies to quite a few people on this site, including myself. A fair number of people have very specific wantlists and they only want to trade their items for items that will build/improve their collections. That amounts to trading for needles within haystacks at times and thus fewer trades. Even guys who want "ALL OF PLAYER X" or "ALL OF TEAM Y" really only want about 1/10-1/4 of what is out there usually and what they may have to offer for what they want might not be needed or wanted by anyone else.

Fewer people are out there just trading to help out the other guy, although they are out there still. I'm not saying that we should all be trading for piles of junk we don't need, just to help a guy out, but I think most will admit that generally trading is a somewhat selfish event for most in reality. If you can't get something you need for that item you are trading, you generally pass and wait for the next opportunity. Long gone are the days of trading Mantle for Frank Leja because Leja was the last card needed to complete the set and you had 6 Mantles already! There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't define the hobby when someone feels like they can't find trade partners. It may just take an overhaul of your trade material or your trading habits.

Trading is alive, but it takes the right combination of people and timing. Heck, check out the "little red paperclip" thread one member has. He has been only able to persuade 2 people to trade with him in a couple of months and I'm fairly confident that both of those people (I was one, so that just leaves one!) wanted to help his project along and didn't really need/want what he was trading. Maybe he started with slightly exaggerated hopes or maybe he just hasn't found the right trade partner yet.

 

[giants1249er]

Still need the Bryant? I have a couple. LMK. Thanks.

 

[mrmopar]

Thanks, but I eventually found one. I don't know how many shops I tried before someone finally had one in a pile of commons. This was before internet and mail order was not kind to common hunters.

Still need the Bryant? I have a couple. LMK. Thanks.

 

[Beachbum]

The shipping costs are the true limiting factor for me. I would totally subscribe to your idealogy of "purely helping other traders" if it didn't cost so much to trade; my time and energy I would offer freely.

I have tried to do local trading by building a network of people I know collect cards and they NEVER want to get together for a myriad of reasons. I have tried advertising too, no luck.

People on the Bench have been kind to me and when I can I "pay it forward" but you can't do it for everybody. Of course, I realize my trades are few and far between and that is just the way it is.

 

[anglinomics]

I recall trading when I was a kid in the 1960's very fondly. Normally we would gather on someone's doorstep and swap doubles to advance the completion of a set. Mickey Mantle was always highly valued and I can guarantee that no one had 6 of him. Me and my brother normally got a box of cards for each series. I don't remember how many packs were in a box, but I would say probably 24. But when summer ended, the collecting stopped so most of the years i had very little 7th series where the short prints were.

In 1969 I completed a set for the first time and was able to obtain the final 5 ot 6 cards from Larry Fritz who was an icon to the hobby. Fritz who advertised in the Sporting News normally sold complete sets I think. But this year I wrote him a letter with the numbers of the last few cards that I needed and sure enough the cards came within a few weeks. I think I put $2 in with my letter, but I'm not sure anymore. What great days these were.

 

[valediction]

Trading has changed a LOT. Back then it was mostly kids trading for sets or team loyalty. Cards didn't have a cash value. It also didn't cost money to trade. I know I wasn't trading across the country or the world when I was younger, it was all local. It's one thing to trade a bunch of cards to a buddy for other cards I don't really need to help him complete a set or further his collection, it's different when I'm shelling out $1-$6 a crack to further someone else's collection with no real benefits to MY collection. The practical side of me wins that debate more often than not.

 

[theplasticman]

I've all but given up on trading. My wants were expansive (4 player collections w/ extensive wants for 1 of them) but too narrow apparently to find many trades.

If I had more time, I'd trade just to trade. I enjoy it. Perhaps next year I'll have more time and be able to break cases again.

 

[mm1sub]

I am someone who trades just for the sake of trading. I have told many people that BV does not matter to me. But more and more I am being forced to buy HOF GU cards to get the cards I need. Curt, you know that you and I agree on just about ever topic when it comes to the hobby we love. the only time I think I disagreed with you was when you wanted the 5 copies of a Garvey card that was #'ed to 5. I thought it was selfish of you because other Garvey guys might want a copy of that card also. But I really think it was the explosion of autos and game used cards that have hindered a lot of trading. I refuse to buy the notion that postage is a problem. I just amiled 5 bubble mailers this morning and it was less than 7.00 for all 5. I am a set builder and always will be. This site has been a blessing and will continue to be so hopefully. I think that through it all this hobby of ours will continue no matter what as long as we have people like we have on TheBench.

 

[David K.]

People still collect sets...however, the cost of shipping/mailing can be costly! Best regards, David

 

[mrmopar]

I don't disagree there. It is selfish. However, in the end, it is the person who either wants it the most or has more money to spend who gets what they want. Sometimes that is me, sometimes it is not. Given there are only a handful of copies of certain cards, there still is not super heavy competition for them (thankfully). I consider myself lucky that I chose a player who was popular in his day, but seems to be lost in that black hole of non-HOF retired players who only a few people really care about. I feel sorry for those Ryan, Henderson, Rose, Ripken, Jeter...collectors who really have to pay to play.

I have tried to curb myself of that greedy impulse in recent times, not only because it costs me too much money for duplicates that I really don't need, but also because I think I am slowly losing interest in the new stuff all together. The realization that after a couple people get their copy of cards, the price takes a giant dump! That tells me that the market for those is nothing and if I ever want to sell to recoup, then I am my own worst enemy!!

BUT...I did JUST recently complete my first sweep of more than 3 copies. I have all 6 copies of a GU issue #'d to 6. I'm sure I overpaid for all of them too, which is my punishment for being greedy!!

you wanted the 5 copies of a Garvey card that was #'ed to 5. I thought it was selfish of you because other Garvey guys might want a copy of that card also.

But, back to the topic at hand. I agree with the postage factor and appreciate the local troubles some of you have expressed. I have not really traded in person for probably 25 years and would actually like to find someone who lived close to me, that I enjoyed spending time with, who also traded cards. Making new friends who collect cards as an adult is not like it used to be when we were kids and the new kid who moved into the neighborhood had cards and became our newest bud.

Of course, I think I'd still be back in the same boat anyway. Narrow wantlist, don't buy new cards, my trade supply rarely changes. Eventually you trade yourself out of the game unless new collectors are continuously introduced who can use the same old crap I have.

My greatest trade partner ever was a team collector who took everything I'd send him, but even that well runs dry if you are not buying new cards all the time!

 

[Beachbum]

But, back to the topic at hand. I agree with the postage factor and appreciate the local troubles some of you have expressed. I have not really traded in person for probably 25 years and would actually like to find someone who lived close to me, that I enjoyed spending time with, who also traded cards. Making new friends who collect cards as an adult is not like it used to be when we were kids and the new kid who moved into the neighborhood had cards and became our newest bud.

Let me tell you there is nothing more frustrating than having friends and resources in your town, with hoards of cards by the way, that never want to get together or say they will and don't. I've even tried the "you don't have to trade them" route just so I could spend some quality time looking at great vintage cards...oh yeah, the actual heart and joy of my hobby.

 

[cadets68]

I still trade to complete my sets. You can tell from the number of trades I have completed on The Bench over the past year that it has gotten more difficult. My trades have really dropped off. I have gone to buying most of my set needs on sportlots. I just find it easier.

But I will make trades to help someone out. Anybody interested in trading can check my www for my set needs and check my sportlots link for cards that are available to trade.

Shawn

 

[OnDeck]

As one of those old time 1950’s traders. I have to agree with you on most parts also a well written piece, and thank you for this topic. Anyway, As you can tell I am still a Rookie level dude here because I am a master set builder which really is a misdirected statement because there are many cards that Topps puts out within any given set no one collector will every see, or obtained for his/her personal collection a good example of this is in the Topps 2012 Baseball set and its 24 carrot gold cards. Calling myself a master set build sounds better than saying I am a hobbyist of Baseball.


I trade for those cards needed to complete my set (s) otherwise, I buy what I need. Recently I meet a new card shop owner in my area who I didn’t even now his store existed. What I liked about his store is he has a group of guys for his trade nights which is what I really wanted. I rather trade in person then trade on a blind site such as this site. I’m not calling this site a bad site but I have had very good trades here, and very bad trades here. However, trading in person is better.


As for this attached value placed on cards in my opinion really killed this hobby. I am from that era where I would trade a Mantle rookie card for a second year DiMaggio card if I needed that card for my set or general player collection. Cards have no real value attached to them unless we place a value to the card. This is what Beckett did they started attaching value to our collection, which drove up the market prices, which help killed the hobby. Today, this Hobby of sports cards is a very, very, small market with collectors popping in and out of the hobby which doesn’t help the hobby either. I know the days of 5 cent packs are long gone but I will still trade card for card instead of value base why ? By the end of the week that high card will no longer stay high. This hobby is becoming more, and more like the RUSH to sell quickly before the price drops, and this attitude is also killing this hobby.


Finding the right combination of people to trade with seems more like the old neighborhood I grew up in where a small group of boys met every Saturday morning by the school yard trade their cards before playing a full morning game of sand lot ball. Today, with this new store find I believe I have found these type of guys once again, and I will be trading more in person. Anyway this is my opinion not a rule or a guide for me the main goal for me is completing that set, getting that Rookie card, completing that Yankee team of days old, and gathering all those HOF’ers before I die LOL

 

[avsbruins65]

Well written piece and responses.

I for one would love to trade more; just finding the right collectors is the problem. I have a few card shops in the local area but find them more into the business and not willing to talk about collecting or help research your wantlist. I have notice a few card shows monthly in my area but all the dealers have their bells and whistle cards (auto/GU), with price tags of well over 100 bucks per. Some common bins also but I would prefer to trade. There was a card shop in town that hosted traded nights a few years ago, but those also were a bust because most of the traders were only interested in the bells and whistle cards.

When I trade I am of the notion that if both traders are happy with the cards then it is a good trade. Values are subjective, as my last divorce brought up. It seems the ex found a database I had of my cards and downloaded my PayPal account purchases to find a value. She totaled every purchase up and wanted to put a value on my collection as marital property. In the end I convinced the judge that all card values are a guide not the rule, value is only what someone is willing to pay for the card. No matter what the price guide states.

In closing I find it fun to go through collectors web pages and see if I have any cards to help them out in their collections. Heck I just sent beachbum 12 pockets pages because he was looking for some and I had some available. Pay it forward is a great way to collect and trade. By helping out a fellow collector it will make you feel better.

Just remember that your collection is yours to do with, but if an item can help a fellow collector get closer to a goal than you are doing a great thing. Your cards are probably just sitting in a box collecting dust so why not trade or help someone.

Take Care Mark

 

[scottzoe]

My 1981 Topps Cullen Bryant, was the 1975 Topps Von Joshua. I can't even think about what I must have trade away to get him, probably Lynn and Rice rookies, which I remember my buddy cutting out the Lynn and Rice pictures and throwing away the rest of the card.
I do agree with you the trading is mostly selfish. how many trade threads have I passed over because there were no Red Sox available? too many to count, I'm sure.

The shipping costs are the true limiting factor for me. I would totally subscribe to your idealogy of "purely helping other traders" if it didn't cost so much to trade; my time and energy I would offer freely.

The shipping cost IS a big factor, not the only factor but a big one. It costs $1.95 to send out a bubble mailer and I really don't like to send PWE's. With that said, if someone has one of my "tough to find" AKA:too inexpensive to bother listing, the price of postage is nothing. On the same line of thought, If I have one of those for someone, I'll send out a freebie, or ask for a SASE.

I really think it was the explosion of autos and game used cards that have hindered a lot of trading. ..... This site has been a blessing and will continue to be so hopefully. I think that through it all this hobby of ours will continue no matter what as long as we have people like we have on TheBench.

The game used/Autos/paralells has made a big change in trading.
Using the Red Sox for example, Beckett has 92,275 cards listed.
The breakdown is :
Base (22222 - 24.08%)
Parallel (37207 - 40.3%)
Inserts (32846 - 35.6%)

Ser (56243- 60.9%)
One of Ones (18632 - 20.19%)
Mem (17005 - 18.4%)
Auto (10686 - 11.58%)

(all numbers are approximate, but reasonably close and of course there is some overlap between the categories..some base are serial numbered, some autos, jerseys, and parallel are not, etc.)

As a collector, even though I want all things Red Sox, I just can't get too excited over any card printed less than 25 copies, or parallels of insets. I get way more excited finding a couple of 1991 Pepsi Red Sox, than a Big Papi #'d to 25.

Scott

 

[mrmopar]

Nice. I remember cutting up rookie cards too! I also made my own mini cards in 1978, because I liked the 75 Minis a few friends had.

I think just about everyone back in the past had a Bryant/Joshua card that they painstakingly searched for forever.

I know Charlie Brown did too!

Joe Shlabotnik!!

http://www.gocomics.com/peanuts/1964/04/12

http://c0389161.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/dyn/str_strip/242309.full.gif

My 1981 Topps Cullen Bryant, was the 1975 Topps Von Joshua. I can't even think about what I must have trade away to get him, probably Lynn and Rice rookies, which I remember my buddy cutting out the Lynn and Rice pictures and throwing away the rest of the card.

 

[BoomerSooner]

I think there are plenty of folks willing to trade. I think there are plenty of cards out there to trade with. I have made some awesome trades here, and had more than a few failed efforts. I appreciate this site a lot, it has enhanced my collection significantly.
Thinking about it, here is what I came up with about trading:

It's not easy. It's work. Not necessarily hard work but work- keeping your trade cards/have lists organized in some fashion, posting want lists, need lists, tradelists, searching the forums, reading countless threads, trying to find something you need from someone who needs something you have- it's not easy. It takes time, of which not everyone has to spare. And let's face it, it takes money- to obtain cards to trade with, to obtain packaging materials, stamps, etc. Then you have the various approaches to trading- the BV for BV people, some of whom who won't swap unless it's totally even, the folks who care nothing about BV, just need cards, the anti-inserts/parallel/high end/expensive product guys, the base set specialists, the master set crazies- getting them together to work out a trade isn't brain surgery but can take just as long, sometimes longer.

But when you do work out a trade, it's all worth it, IMO. You've helped someone else while enhancing your collection. it's a great concept, one that goes back to younger years for some of us when card collecting was much more innocent than it is now (and we're all to blame for that).

Yes, the hobby has changed, but so have we. If we all just work it a little bit, then this hobby is fun. If we just whine about it, besmirch it, focus on the negative, where is the fun in that? Go search those threads- there are cards you need out there, on someones desk right now, go get'em.

 

[entersandman]

I think there are also a lot of people who just prefer to sell. I'll be the first one to admit that's my goal in general and i'm picky with what I trade. Although tonight i did trade a winfield autograph for a nice seaver auto.

 

[Kirbyfan34]

I just posted a trade for 5 Kirby Puckett cards that I don't have, in return I'm sending my Mariano Rivera Game used #'ed to 200. Did I get robbed? It depends on who you ask. I get 5 from my main player collection and someone gets an awful nice card of a future Hall of Famer. I had thought about asking for a minor throw in Rookie, but then it was like well...

Some of my early trades here I really helped others out. I am working on Topps sets from 1980 to the present, just to stream line my collection. There were some that were really one sided for the other guy. Like my Brooks Robinson TTM auto on a throwaway 80's set (baseball greats), for what amounted to 20 bucks worth of commons. It helped us both out, and I'm happy with it. I also traded HUGE amounts of Ripken, Jeter, and Griffey to come within striking distance of my goal.

I enjoy the site, love trading with everyone, and look for new deals all the time. I generally don't worry about BV, because the card market just isn't what it used to be. While it's nice to know the "Value" of your collection is, it's not the main reason that I collect. I collect because I love the game and it's history. One of the most awesome things is that anytime I look at a Jamie Quirk card for example, I look heartbroken at the amount of hits/homeruns from 1984. There was only one, and longtime, die hard Twins fans know exactly what I'm talking about. (Quirk's ONLY hit that year was a home run to beat Minnesota at the end of the season to knock them out of playoff contention.) Or Lance Johnson's 1996 Topps card. It mentions a game at the end of 1995 when Lance went 6 for 6 against the Twins. I was at that game as it was the first time I went to a Fan Appreciation Night. The problem was the White Sox won about 14 to 3. Lance also by the way had 3 triples in that game. I really enjoy that part of the hobby. And no matter what the value there is always the great photos also, 1991 Topps Shane Mack, 1984 fleer Glenn Hubbard, or Jay Johnstone, and I could go on an on, which I won't but you get the idea. We all collect for different reasons, the hard part remains finding someone with your goals as well.

 

[mj23bullsfan]

curtis, thanx for the mention of the "little red paper clip"! i appreciate the trade you made with me. craig (loyalty32) got the ball rolling on that one, an i appreciated the help there as well.

i actually borrowed that "little red paper clip" idea from another member who had started one. i checked out the link on the "original paper clip" trader, and thought it was a cool idea.

i'm at a stalemate right now, i've had some offers for the pafko, but nothing in the area of a slight upgrade.

thanx again for the plug

paul